Fisheries Committee on March 12th, 2012

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks, gentlemen, for being with us today and for putting up with our going back to vote and having to wait through that period.

You're probably aware that we've heard a lot of different issues from a lot of different people during this study, but about four different things keep coming up over and over again, that in my mind, are negatives with open pen farming. We've heard about sea lice, we've heard about the infectious diseases, we've heard about the problems with escapees, and we've heard about the alterations to the benthic environment.

A couple of minutes ago when my colleague was asking you some questions, Mr. Hutchings, you talked about opportunities to improve the capabilities of open pen aquaculture. Would those improvements that you referred to but didn't elaborate on address those things that we have been hearing about as issues?

[Dr. Jeffrey Hutchings]

I'll let Dr. Fleming talk about this as well. As we've indicated, there is certainly an opportunity for the current technology of the open-sea net pens to be improved upon in terms of mitigating some of these issues.

Escapees, of course, are not good for the industry. They're not good for the environment, and they're not good for the industry. Indeed, to be fair to the industry, the incidence of escapees in Canada appears to be declining. That's a response by the industry.

With respect to infectious diseases, one of the things that can be done do reduce the incidence of infectious diseases is to be cognizant of the densities that fish are being reared at. The higher the density, the more likely it is that a disease will manifest itself, and if it does, the more likely it is that it will proliferate.

Those are two things. With respect to waste accumulation on the bottom, there is fallowing. There are techniques that can be undertaken there, but there are also things such as in the Broughton Archipelago in B.C., for example, where there already has been a move by industry in response to a variety of different pressures to relocate some fish farms out of the migration pathways of some Pacific salmon populations.

To be fair, to be balanced, there has been some improvement on the part of the industry, and there are some ways to mitigate some of these issues.

[Dr. Ian Fleming]

Having worked on these related issues for a long time, 20 years or so, the improvement is noticeable. There have been great strides. We still face the same issues, and we've reduced the number of escapes, but we have also produced many more salmon in net pens. The levels of escapes in total numbers probably remains fairly stable, though the percentage from an escapement is lower.

There are improvements in technology that can be made, standards that can be introduced, and moorings and collapse of cages that can be addressed. There are pesticide treatments whereby you close-contain the net pen when you're applying the pesticides, so that it doesn't escape into the environment, or it reduces the amount that escapes into the environment and reduces the amount you need to put into the environment in order to control things like sea lice.

There are all these incremental steps that are improving it.

As long as we have open-net pen culture, we're going to have escapes and we're going to have disease transmission, because it's an incomplete barrier. We can reduce it, but we can't eliminate it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

What would happen if Atlantic salmon established themselves off the west coast? What effect would that have? Would it be a problem?

[Dr. Jeffrey Hutchings]

I think, first of all, one has to consider the probability of Atlantic salmon establishing themselves off of the west coast. On balance—and this was one of the conclusions of the report— there is little evidence that this has happened.

And to be fair, it's rather unlikely, I think, that it would happen. Atlantic salmon does not transfer very well. People have tried to stock Atlantic salmon in the Maritimes, across the country, and in different parts of the world, and it has not taken very well. It's not a particularly good invasive species.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Very good.

Basically, if I understand you correctly, Dr. Fleming, it's important as we go down this road that the open-net concept basically not reinvent itself, but that we make sure to use every form of technology that can be used, in order to ensure that, for example, if you spray, it does not get into the waters and that type of thing.

If that's done then, if I'm understanding you correctly, you think both concepts could work quite well, if done properly.

[Dr. Ian Fleming]

Certainly, I would think that closed, land-based facilities will be better than open systems, for the very reason that it's a penetrable environment and a penetrable cage. Open-net pens are still going to persistently have those problems. They can be reduced, certainly, and that's what we have seen through time.

But ultimately, as long as you have an open system you're still going to have the exchange of water, and with the exchange of water is the exchange of all sorts of potential pathogens and the outfall and effluent. There are issues of trying to minimize those things while you're progressively moving towards another or ultimate solution.

You'll end up weighing the cost and benefits at the end. Is it going to be economical or won't it be economical to have land-based facilities? At the same time, you also have to say that for the current system we want to improve the sustainability of the open-net pen aquaculture that we have.

You base it on those trade-offs, and the industry will see the advantages and the disadvantages of either one.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Basically, the almighty dollar will decide it in the end. That's your advice, too, if I understand correctly—not the government deciding, but the dollar deciding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

You cut me off.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

I know you'd be disappointed if I didn't.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Gentlemen, I'd like to thank you on behalf of the committee. Thank you for your patience today, and especially for taking the time to answer our questions and to appear before this committee. We certainly appreciate the counsel you've given us.

Thank you once again on behalf of the entire committee.

Committee members, we'll excuse our witnesses.

Before we adjourn, Mr. Donnelly, you want to move your motion.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, I do.

I gave notice on this motion. I'll read the motion into the record.

I move that, because fleet separation and owner-operator policy is critical to coastal communities and to protecting independent fishers in the inshore fishery, the committee reaffirms its support for fleet separation and owner-operator vessels in the inshore fishery and opposes any move to eliminate this policy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.

It has been moved by Mr. Donnelly. The motion is being distributed.

Mr. Donnelly, do you have a brief statement to make at this time?

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you. I do.

We've learned that the fisheries minister has been holding invite-only meetings on the so-called “modernization of the Fisheries Act”. One aspect being discussed is the fleet separation and owner-operator policy. That this government is considering getting rid of this longstanding policy has left many fishers on the east coast nervous.

I'm suggesting that we consider this motion to reassure those fishers that this, in fact, is not the case. When we vote on this motion, I would like to have a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.

Mr. Donnelly, your motion has been officially moved, and we'll set aside some time to debate your motion in the future.

Mr. MacAulay, do you want to move your motion?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I move that, because fleet separation and owner-operator policy form the backbone of the inshore and midshore fisheries on the east coast of Canada and that the removal of said policy would do irreparable damage to the fisheries along with hundreds of coastal communities, the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans immediately undertake a study, including travelling to hold hearings with affected stakeholders across Atlantic Canada, on what the removal of the policy would mean in economic, social, and cultural terms, along with a comparative analysis of other jurisdictions where similar policies are not in place or have been removed, such as British Columbia, New Zealand, and Norway.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. MacAulay. This motion has been moved and has been distributed to committee members.

Do you have a brief statement that you want to make?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I do not know where government is going, but where I come from, I talk to fishermen on a daily basis. I haven't talked to a fisherman who has spoken to anybody involved in fleet separation or this new policy that the government is talking about putting in place.

The only thing I would like to see happen, looking at how vitally important it is for the thousand communities in Atlantic Canada—not only for the people involved in the fishery, but for every small business and in fact for the existence of the community itself.... It's important that the committee go to those areas and listen to what the people have to say. If we lose this policy.... Governments can make changes in a lot of things, but if you change this, it's over. You cannot come back.

That's why I truly hope that we get support and are able to travel to those communities, because if we do not travel to those communities and bring the recommendations back to the minister in order to save the owner-operator and fleet separation policy, these communities will not be there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. MacAulay.

As with Mr. Donnelly's motion, we'll set aside some time to debate this motion in the future.

Go ahead, Mr. Allen.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I have just a really quick point. It's not a motion or anything.

I just would like to say that the trip we went on to Washington was one of the best committee trips I have been on in a long time, from an information standpoint. I want to say thanks to the staff for all the work they did, and specifically to George—in spite of his road rage—what a great job he did. Thank you very much. It was good. It was really well done.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

We'll strike that part on road rage from the record.