Fisheries Committee on Nov. 8th, 2012

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Sorry. My notes could have been clearer.

Would you be able to comment on Mr. Wuttke's original testimony?

[Audrey Mayes, Senior Policy Analyst, Environmental Stewardship, Assembly of First Nations]

Yes.

We had requested some background materials so that it would assist us to formulate our own analysis of what was contained in Bill C-38, and now we're faced with Bill C-45.

We suggested during our brief technical meeting with DFO...to produce four helpful documents that we could disseminate to first nations as well as take a look at so that it would assist us in doing our outreach with first nations. We requested a powerpoint deck-type of overview. We asked for a comparison document.

I'll also note that this is the first time we've had any definition of “aboriginal fishery” contained in the bill. Previous attempts to change the Fisheries Act over the years have not looked at or examined the definition of an aboriginal fishery. This is a very new clause for us, and we wanted to have a little bit more of a conversation with the department and have the time to talk to first nations across the country about what that means to them.

We have a lot of case law to look at. We also have various complex self-government agreements and treaties. We have the peace and friendship treaties and the numbered treaties as well as new treaties that are being negotiated.

There's quite an array of different complexities. We thought that by requesting some of this background information from the department, it would assist us in providing information to first nations so they could understand what is being proposed.

Thank you.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

At this point those reports, those presentations, have not been provided, right?

[Audrey Mayes]

That's correct. We understand they don't have permission to release to us any information, any documents.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

The information being requested therefore exists. Do you know of reports that exist that you're trying to see, or are you asking for a compilation that hasn't been created yet?

[Audrey Mayes]

I understand that they've been working on things within the department. In fact they referenced a three-pager that they're trying to seek permission to release to us.

So we do know that there are some documents and things that they have been using with their engagement sessions. Unfortunately, those powerpoints or those materials have not been shared with first nations or the public, as far as we know.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Has there been an explanation as to why the three-pager hasn't been released? They've been told not to release it?

[Audrey Mayes]

They've just told us that they don't have authorization to release those documents.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Okay.

Is there any way for the committee to enquire as to what the reason is for the withholding of that document?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

The committee would have to move a motion to ask the department.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Can I move that motion?

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I would like to move that motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

The motion being...?

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

The motion being that the committee instruct the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to release the document that Ms. Mayes has just made reference to.

[Audrey Mayes]

[Inaudible--Editor]...that document is, I understand that there was a powerpoint used by Mr. Kamp at some meetings. I believe there was one at the AMC meeting; the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs had referenced it.

So some of these meetings that have occurred.... I believe there was also one referenced in the Yukon as well.

I believe there's a powerpoint that is circulating, and that would be helpful, just to know what is contained in these briefings.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Committee members, we have a motion partially on the floor here, at this point in time.

Mr. Toone, you might want to withdraw your partial motion and get some clarity on what it is that you want to move. This is the chairman's advice to you, that you might want to get some clarity, because we need to be very specific if we're going to request a document. We need to know specifically what document it is.

So my advice to you would be to retract your motion—

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

How about the motion be that DFO officials be invited to come and explain what documents are available?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

That, again, is not very specific, Mr. Toone.

And I'm not here to advise you on...when you say “how about a motion”. Please make your motion very specific. I

I'm trying to give you a little advice, Mr. Toone. You're perfectly within your right to propose a motion, and the committee will entertain the motion, but the motion needs to be—

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

I don't want to say “definite”, but yes, it's got to be definite, Mr. Toone.

Mr. Toone, do you want to take a few moments? I mean, at the end of our questions, you can propose your motion, certainly, but we have two more questioners at this point.

If you want to take a few moments here, and put together your motion, then we'll....

Thank you, Mr. Toone.

Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Monsieur le président, merci.

Thanks to our witnesses, Ms. Mayes and Mr. Pujdak, for being here today.

I'm going to concentrate my questions on you, Mr. Taylor.

I would like to begin by applauding your efforts to promote the development of the fisheries sector.

Thanks for your efforts that groups like yours across the country do. In my own part of the country it's the Pacific Salmon Foundation and groups like that.

The government is in the difficult position of having to fulfill its campaign commitments of reducing deficit, of staying on course to boost the economy, and therefore reducing costs while fulfilling its mandate to build the sustainable fisheries. Certainly the government is vulnerable to criticism, because no matter what it does, one can say it's reducing in one area or another, because that's exactly what the government sought to do and got the mandate to do.

At the same time, I agree with you that we need to concentrate our resources to do the things that you're trying to do through your foundation. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

Firstly, what benefit do you see in concentrating on these three fisheries—aboriginal, recreational, and commercial? Secondly, we've talked about the engagement, and you've raised some very specific concerns about the level of engagement. Perhaps part of that would be to get out some of the information, such as in P.E.I. You may not know that there will be four conservation and protection offices set up in Alberton, Charlottetown, Souris, and Summerside.

My question for you is this. What are some of the best practices that you can refer to based on your previous experience with DFO—or with MPs? How can that engagement be better, given that we will have timeframes that will find everybody having to move fast? This is a government that is trying to get things done. Give us some examples of how you think this engagement should work.

The first is the concentration on the three fisheries; what advantages do you see we can achieve, in obtaining a sustainable fisheries, by doing that, being strategic?

Secondly, how can we operate going forward to improve on this engagement that is of such concern to you and me and my colleagues ?

[Bill Taylor]

Thank you. I will do my best.

With respect to focusing or identifying the three fisheries that the new act will focus on—commercial, recreational, and our first nation aboriginal fisheries—I'm not yet comfortable that this is the best approach. I'm concerned that there are other important fisheries that may not have a commercial, aboriginal—

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I'm going to interrupt, just because the time is so short. This is where we're going. That's the direction. We're committed. The government believes this is the best way to obtain a sustainable fishery.

So now that we're doing that, how do you see that as an advantage—rather than go back to what you might have preferred?

[Bill Taylor]

I guess the quick answer, because we're short of time, is that I don't see the advantage. I've given one example already that deeply concerns the Atlantic Salmon Federation, and that is with regard to the wild Atlantic salmon populations, in hundreds of rivers in Quebec and Atlantic Canada, that do not support, that don't have a healthy enough population to support, either a first nations fishery, a commercial fishery, or a recreational fishery. Where do they fall, and how will they be protected, in the act?

As an example, we do not have a commercial fishery for Atlantic salmon on the east coast of Canada. There are only recreational and first nation fisheries. But there are hundreds and hundreds of rivers where there are neither first nations nor recreational fisheries because of the population. There are salmon in the rivers, but just not a healthy enough population to fish for them. Where do they fall?

That's a serious question that we have.