Fisheries Committee on June 18th, 2013

[Kevin Stringer]

We have a number of things that we use. We go with landing slips, and then there are mandatory log books and we ask people to record what they're catching.

I'll highlight one other thing, which we do with the FSRS, the Fishermen Scientist Research Society. We provide a number of fish—I think it's 180 or something like that across Atlantic Canada—with two to five extra traps each, and we make those different types of traps so they capture everything. We can actually look to see how many smaller lobster there are. We do all kinds of tests on them: we tag them and check the eggs, the gender, the length, the number of V-notches, etc. That has actually been enormously useful, because the challenge with only working with the commercial fishermen is that you only get the legal sized lobsters. That tells you what that subset is, but now we have this other piece that gives us a broader sense.

Also, we do vessel-based surveys in a number of areas that catch lobster as bycatch, and we use that information as well. So we do have information coming from a number of sources as well as some of the pure research.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

This strikes me as a remarkably easy species to manage compared to open-ocean pelagic fish. I think that's one of the reasons that they're doing so well.

Could you expand more on what affects year-class strength in lobsters? They do fluctuate, you pointed out, but what's the guessing as to what causes those fluctuations?

[Kevin Stringer]

That's a good question. What we're seeing right now is, year after year, year-class strengths. We're actually seeing good recruitment every single year and, in fact, the fishery depends on it. If you're actually taking out 60% or 70% of the legally available fish and the fish that can actually reproduce themselves, you need to have good recruitment.

As I said, we believe that the main impacts are predation, which is low, the environmental conditions—water temperature, etc. A storm may have an impact. There's that three to ten-week period when their larvae are drifting. If there's a storm and they drift somewhere, that will have an impact eight years down the road when these recruit into the fishery. Changing currents could take them in a different direction and land them in a different spot. Those types of things could have an impact eight years later on what the actual fishery would then be. So it's predation, environmental conditions, etc.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I want to come back to the situation in oversupply and how it relates to or involves Maine as well. Are there any cross-border discussions happening to look at how to manage supply?

I'm a little worried by some of the things you have said. They kind of lead me to believe that you may be leaning towards a quota system.

I think in your own words, Kevin, you indicated that there hasn't been a precipitous decline in lobsters that you know of, and that has been with the effort fishery. I know there's a tendency towards DFO management by DFO management, because it would make it easier for them if there was a quota system, but the effort fishery has worked well in lobsters. It's one of the most healthy fish stocks out there. So the effort fishery has worked out.

Our problem isn't conservation at the moment. Our problem is oversupply. To go to a quota system is not necessarily going to solve that problem.

Have any discussions taken place on the cross-border issues—because we can't do it alone in Canada, I'll admit that—to look at somehow managing supply to feed the market?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'll start with what you raised as part of this, the issue of a quota system.

We've seen—you know this—from time to time recommendations. The last FRCC report actually recommended, I think it was in 2007, that we move to a quota system.

There's not a lot of love for that in the inshore fishing industry.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That's for sure.

[Kevin Stringer]

You've seen ministers say, look, we're going to work with fishermen, and as you've heard Adam say here, we're interested in working with fishermen in terms of what they want to do.

Currently the fisheries are in a healthy status, as we've said, so you know, hopefully...and I think we haven't heard much about going to quota systems, I would say, recently.

I don't know if my colleagues know anything about discussions with Maine.

[Adam Burns]

The Maritimes region of DFO has regular interactions with officials in the state of Maine. I think one of the issues with lobster is that it is fairly sedentary. The typical interactions with Maine would relate more to discussions around conservation, but as you say, conservation isn't the main issue in this case. I'm not aware of whether there have been any discussions related to dealing with supply, but that doesn't mean they haven't happened.

To reinforce what Kevin said about boat quotas or other mechanisms—changes to season, changes to carapace size or any of the others—because of the health of the stock there isn't a strong conservation argument to be made to implement any of those types of management measures.

It may seem somewhat frustrating, but that's why the department's approach is very much one of working with industry to come to a consensus on a way forward. It's because the interventions that would occur would primarily be focused on the economics side. But it's their industry, and it really needs to be something that they come to us with.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I know it's likely well known around this table, Mr. Chair, that carapace size increase is a little bit of a sensitive issue for fishermen where I come from. New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are a little bit more prone to increasing carapace size than we are, because we do have a canner market, which is the smaller lobsters.

From a federal government perspective, have any discussions been held or is anything taking place in terms of looking at further processing capacity, further marketing, into Asia or Japan?

I'm on the trade committee, and I know we've been looking at some of those issues. There's certainly an opportunity in China. There have been trade delegations go to China to promote sales of seafood, but the market certainly hasn't opened up to the extent of taking the surpluses yet.

What's happening there from Fisheries and Oceans Canada's perspective?

[Nadia Bouffard]

The role of market access and marketing is really with Agriculture Canada, so the information that I would give you would be very general. They would be best placed to give it to you.

I know that Agriculture—

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I don't want to interrupt you, Nadia, but then you can tell them, based on this meeting, that we think they should get off their butt and do a little more marketing, and get it done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much, Mr. Easter.

[Nadia Bouffard]

I understand that Agriculture Canada has provided funding in the past to the lobster industry—through the Fisheries Council of Canada, prior to the creation of the Lobster Council of Canada—to do promotional work, in China in particular and some of the new markets. Through some of my travels, I certainly have seen an increase in Canadian lobster in those markets. But I think they would be best placed to give you the details of that funding and that information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chisholm.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

On that last point, I think what we heard in a very polite way from the Lobster Council was that Agriculture Canada has done absolutely nothing. It has been non-existent; it has not done the job.

I'll ask this question and then continue with my second one.

When the Lobster Council of Canada appeared before us, they suggested a levy—a tax and licensing fee—for lobsters. They talked about having submitted a request for it to DFO.

Is this possible? When you were asked originally about the Lobster Council's being able to initiate a levy, you seemed to say that you hadn't really thought about the possibilities. I'm a bit concerned, because certainly this is something the Lobster Council said they have been pursuing for some time.

Let me leave that question with you, and let me make this point. On the whole question of dealing with the industry, dealing with harvesters and so on, Mr. Burns, you said on a couple of occasions that you are always willing to listen to the industry, whether it be on carapace size or on other measures that can be taken to improve the business model.

I have to say a couple of things. One is that the department wasn't particularly responsive last year. It was an historic fact that the industry as a whole came together and all asked for the same thing: a year for transition in the move to download the cost for tagging and for licensing. They got the cold shoulder. That's point number one.

Number two, they continued to plead their case for an increase in carapace size, which not only is a conservation measure but also a question of improving their market size. As recently as a few weeks ago, with an Area 26B vote of more than 90%, you turned them down.

When you say that you are open to their coming forward, I'm concerned that you be serious about it. What is it going to take, on the economic side and in terms of the downloading of costs? It was a unified position; in terms of one LFA there was a huge majority that supported a particular position. What is it going to take to get an increase in carapace size or to get any of these measures that the industry is saying they want you to bring forward? They want some help.

This is a problem that exists in the Atlantic provinces and in eastern Quebec. DFO needs to be a player in this. The industry would like to see you be more involved, not just on the conservation side but in actually working with the industry to find some solutions to these problems. Your silence is deafening, when it comes to the current situation surrounding price.

So there are two issues. One is on the levy, with the Lobster Council of Canada, and on the fact that Agriculture Canada is nowhere on this; the second is about how serious you are about coming up with some solutions, hand in hand with the industry.

[Adam Burns]

I'll start with your second question and then Nadia will answer the first one related to the Lobster Council.

We're very willing to work with industry, and I can point to a couple of examples this year where carapace prices have increased. For example, in LFA 23—albeit I realize it's not the LFA that you were asking about—there was an issue that we worked through for a number of years with the industry stakeholders who participate in the fishery. In LFA 23 there are four subcomponents and each one is linked to the other. The net result of the work we've undertaken over the past while has been an increase in the carapace size there this year and going forward.

In LFA 26, we're certainly aware of the request in 26B. It's something the region will be working closely on with the folks in that area. They'll be looking at implementing something for next year if there's an appropriate consensus. I don't think that we need to debate what level that needs to be. I think that's something the region will work closely with them on.

We have some evidence of our working closely with industry. Those are examples where our officials in the regions reach out to industry participants to look at ways to meet their needs by improving the management approach in their area, whether it's changing the season to match markets, increasing carapace size, or other measures they may be interested in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, we're out of time on that one.

Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to the witnesses for being with us here today.

I have found this to be a very comprehensive review. We've touched on everything from the health of the stocks, to the size of the carapace, to the responsibility for marketing. It was a very comprehensive review. I'm going to touch on a few things to make sure that I've understood them correctly. I want to try to put it all in context.

I'll begin by asking if you can tell me how to weigh the value of the lobster industry against the economy of the Atlantic provinces generally? Could I say that this lobster industry is a certain percentage of the gross domestic product of the Atlantic region? How can I quantify the economic impact of this industry in the Atlantic region?

[Kevin Stringer]

We'll have to get back to you on that. I've seen the numbers, but I don't want to quote them as a percentage of the economy. What we can say is that it's a billion-dollar industry. It's the most significant fishery economically in Canada, not just in Atlantic Canada. There are approximately 10,000 participants in that fishery. As far as fisheries are concerned, it is the most significant one from an economic and participation perspective. As a percentage of Atlantic Canada's economy, I know we have those numbers, but I'm not sure what they are now.

[Nadia Bouffard]

There are 10,000 fishing enterprises. That involves 25,000 to 30,000 people across Atlantic Canada and Quebec. That's just in the harvesting sector. There are also hundreds of processors involved across the provinces. When you look at the peripheral impact of all of that, there's a lot of employment. I believe close to 80,000 people are employed in the lobster fishing industry across Atlantic Canada and Quebec. We can confirm those numbers for you, but I don't know the percentage or amount.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

It would be helpful to me to have that confirmed. If possible, we'd like to have some context in respect of the Atlantic and Quebec economy. I don't know how to put that in perspective, but for now I'm going to operate on the assumption that it's a pretty significant piece of the picture. I'll wait to get those figures.

The other thing I wanted to ask about was the Atlantic lobster sustainability measures, which provided $50 million for the development and implementation of plans to aid the fishery in making needed changes. What was the major thrust of that assistance? What was the money used for in the main?

[Adam Burns]

The money was used for a variety of investments, the main focus of which was related to trap and licence retirements. Just under 600 licences were retired, and when you add the traps that were removed, a total of 200,000 traps were taken out of the water.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All right, that's what I thought. Please correct me because I may not have it right, but my understanding is that the reason we would want to retire 600 licences and take.... How many traps were taken out, did you say?

[Adam Burns]

A total of 200,000 were taken out.