Evidence of meeting #28 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ice.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC
Thank you.
Do you feel it wouldn't be a weapon?
5:15 p.m.
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Oh yes. I sure do.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Thank you very much.
Thank you for being here, and thank you for being on the ice and trying to provide safety for both sides of this issue, I suspect.
Minister Swerdfager, how many fisheries officers do you have in the department?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Right now, we're at about 625 badged officers. We have a number of C and P officers who are not at the field level, if you will. But we're at about 625 or 640 at any given moment.
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Not a lot. It's a little bit, but not a lot.
It's been relatively steady over, I'd say, about 12 years.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Mr. Sylvestre, did you indicate that the observers are there and that it's good for the seal harvest, good for the industry, and it is...? I didn't quite catch how you responded to that.
I have a different opinion on the observers. It's quite different, but I'd like your view.
Did I understand you correctly?
5:15 p.m.
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
No, I did not mean that it was good for industry. My apologies if what I said was interpreted that way, but that's not it. I wanted to establish a distinction between two...
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
No, I didn't say it was good. I didn't mean to say that it's good for the industry.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Okay, thank you very much.
I do not know all the legal ramifications, but you're telling me that 10 metres was established by the court. In my opinion that 10 metres is a problem. First of all, roughly how many people percentage-wise, who obtain the licence to be within 10 metres of this harvest, support the seal fishery? Would there be 50%? I'd just like to have your opinion.
5:15 p.m.
Director, National Fisheries Intelligence Service, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I will attempt to address your question. I don't know the actual statistics, but I would suspect that the majority of the individuals who request a permit to observe the hunt are those who have an interest in animal rights. The regular media, CBC or CTV for example, may also request a permit to get footage for their news shows. But the regular observers are largely from the organized animal rights groups, such as the HSUS and its affiliates, the IFAW, and the Sea Shepherd Society, and so on.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
In my opinion, Mr. Jenkins, they've done an excellent job of basically destroying an industry that was so valuable. But anyhow, that's not your problem.
How many licences would be issued per day to go onto the ice, or is that gauged by the number of harvesters on the ice? How do you gauge that? If I want to get an observer's licence to go out on the ice to support this seal harvest, will I get it and can I go out?
5:20 p.m.
Director, National Fisheries Intelligence Service, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
As long as you don't have the stated aim to disrupt the hunt and you're willing to abide by the conditions that are explained to you in the licence conditions, you will be issued a permit. The permit contains conditions that you must provide information to the department as to with whom you are planning on going to [Inaudible--Editor], how you plan to get there, and when and where you plan to go.
If only a small number of vessels are fishing on any one day or in one area, we will restrict the numbers to keep them manageable. The same situation would apply as I explained about Hay Island, so if we only have two vessels fishing in a certain area, sometimes multiple groups may be interested in going to that area. We usually explain to all the interested participants that, for example, we're only going to allow four of them to be in that area at one time, so they can agree among themselves to send one representative from each group, or in the absence of an agreement, we'll just arbitrarily decide that you someone can go out in the morning and somebody else in the afternoon. Usually if there's more interest than there is realistic opportunity to observe without being too disruptive, the groups will all agree among themselves to select one individual.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Thank you very much.
I've been told that it's been a big job, not the licensed ones but dealing with the bill now and the shift from half a mile to one mile. Is it correct that it was difficult to monitor that and to keep them within a half a mile? Was there any problem with that and were you short of resources? If there was a problem, why? Also, how will the mile help if the half mile couldn't be enforced? My problem is that there are a whole lot of do-gooders going out there to destroy an industry. Anyhow, that part is not for you to answer.
5:20 p.m.
Director, National Fisheries Intelligence Service, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Thank you for your question, sir.
I think some of the biggest advantages of one mile versus the half mile gets back to safety. You can appreciate, as in the pictures we've handed out—particularly when it comes to ships—that you can cover a lot of ground fairly quickly, so we will have more time to react. We will be able to position ourselves farther away from the fishing industry if there is a problem, for example in the case of the Farley Mowat, because...the sealers, particularly if they're on the ice, even the wake from the ship cracking the ice, and so on, could endanger their lives, so it would give us more reaction time.
When it comes to enforcement, if we see a ship that doesn't already have the stated aim of disrupting the hunt, for example in the case of the Sea Shepherd—
5:20 p.m.
Director, National Fisheries Intelligence Service, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, so once they start approaching the zone, we'll be in the area. We will give them fair warning that they're approaching the zone and that they're not allowed to enter unless they have an observation permit. We will give them an opportunity to cease and desist, to find another route, or to move away.
In the case of individuals intent on disrupting the hunt, as we've seen with the Farley Mowat, they're simply not going to turn around because we say so. In that case, it requires an escalated approach, which ultimately leads to us—the department—positioning a coast guard ship between the Farley Mowat and the sealers on the ice, for the protection and safety of the sealers on the ice.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Would you say, sir, that.... I'd just like you to give me an idea of what a normal day might be like out there. Looking at these licensed observers who are within 10 metres of the people who are doing the work, it would seem to me that it would be somewhat annoying. As far as I'm concerned, they're there to cause trouble.
5:25 p.m.
Chief, Regulations, Quebec, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I want to add on to what Mr. Jenkins was saying.
There is constant communication between people onboard the icebreaker who manage operations and those who issue observation licences. That is intended to ensure that an excessively high number of observations licences are not issued and to avoid having too many people observing just a few boats. This type of communication already exists.
Obviously, if someone with a licence follows a hunter, that can cause problems. For hunters, it is not simple to work in this type of context. Having someone filming them with a camera can lead to additional stress for hunters. Seal hunting conditions are not simple. There can be vast stretches of ice or small flows no bigger than three or four tables. Fishers jump from their vessels to the ice to hunt seals. Of course, it is not simple.
When we meet with hunters, we try to make them aware of this reality and make them understand that if they do their job correctly and if they use slaughter methods that are both accepted as humane and recognized by industry, observers will have nothing to report after their day of observation. We try to make them aware of this to ensure that they can still work safely. I admit, however, that it is neither simple nor easy.
That is what applies to those who have an observation licence. When it comes to those who do not have a licence, other problems crop up. We spoke today about people who clearly had no intention of obeying regulations and whose goal was to disrupt hunters activities. That is a whole other aspect of managing the seal hunt.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
June 11th, 2014 / 5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Thank you.
In my previous lives I was involved with wildlife conservation and the communication of hunting. I'm currently the chair of the Conservative hunting and angling caucus.
As I look back on the history of the animal rights movement, I see that their modus operandi is very clear. First they start off by questioning the sustainability of the hunt. Then they want it to be made more humane. I looked at some of the old records, and I see your department worked very hard to ensure the humaneness of the hunt and played by all the scientific rules. But it became fairly clear that the ultimate goal of these animal rights groups—who are phenomenally wealthy—was to end the seal hunt itself.
From your experience on the ice with these groups, is it fair to say that their ultimate goal is to end the hunt, period, and the humaneness and sustainability of the harvest has nothing to do with their motives?
5:25 p.m.
Chief, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I must say that, as a citizen and not as a fisheries officer, I get informed and I go to their site. We can see where they are coming from. There are different types of activists, going from the least to the most hardly militant, as our photos demonstrate. Indeed, their goal is to stop this hunt which, according to them, is far from humane.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Mr. Pinhorn talked about the seal population increasing from five million to ten million animals. I have no reason to doubt that.
Mr. Swerdfager, has the quota kept pace with that increase in seal numbers? Has the quota itself effectively been doubled?
