Fisheries Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on January 18, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing.

Joining us today as witnesses we have Mr. Jamie Fox, former minister of fisheries and communities for the Province of Prince Edward Island.

We also have Mr. Ian MacPherson, executive director of the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association, who is quite familiar with committee here.

Welcome to you both. You each have up to five minutes for your opening statements.

We will start with Mr. Fox for five minutes or less, please.

[Jamie Fox, Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to everybody on the committee for the invitation to appear before the fisheries standing committee for the study on illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing.

As a former minister of fisheries for the Province of Prince Edward Island, from 2019-23, I cannot underscore enough the importance of the seafood industry to the economy of a smaller province, such as Prince Edward Island. The seafood industry is one of the top three economic drivers of the P.E.I. economy and one of the highest contributors to the gross domestic product in comparison to other provinces in Canada. Our fishery must be preserved in a sustainable and responsible manner for all fishers.

During my tenure as a provincial fisheries minister, I worked with the wild capture, aquaculture and seafood processing sectors to ensure our fishery stayed strong and healthy for current and future generations.

We must reinforce the existing controls on our fisheries where they are needed and also develop more stringent controls in the areas where are lacking.

I have supported, and continue to support, the increase of fines to plants or buyers dealing in the sale or trade of illegal products. As plant and buyer licensing falls under provincial jurisdiction, it is important that the provincial and federal governments continue to work together on plugging gaps that allow illegal activity to continue to this day.

Fines for infractions must be increased to levels that truly deter individuals or companies from continuing illegal practices. Currently, some fines and penalties are considered to be a cost of doing business. Financial penalties and reduced fishing or buying days could be ways to send a strong message to offenders that those types of activities will not be tolerated.

I can tell you, as a former police officer, I have a great amount of respect for the men and women tasked with keeping our fisheries operating in a legal manner. Organizations such as the Department of Fisheries and Oceans must be adequately funded and staffed so that this important enforcement work can be carried out.

I am also a strong advocate for penalties being administered to all offenders in a clear and consistent manner, whatever the Fisheries Act infraction. In many ways, in conversations with harvesters at the wharf, the concept of equality and fairness among harvesters is paramount. Those who take illegal advantage of the fishery hurt not only their fellow fishers but also their communities, their provinces, Canada and our reputation on the world stage.

Unfortunately, many of our local species are in a rebuilding stage, and some may take years to reach previous stock limits. Prince Edward Island does not have the range of species that adjoining provinces even consider part of their fisheries. Therefore, we must be more diligent in protecting stocks for important fisheries such as lobster.

Our dependency on a vital fishery is not one of choice, but one of necessity for our province. Therefore, before I left provincial politics, I truly supported the efforts of the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association in its development of the electronic log system. I feel that e-logs are a necessary step in assisting both the federal and the provincial governments in the collection of real-time data that will allow more accurate and timely decisions to be made concerning our resources.

The capacity of these units can also be expanded to assist in the collection of scientific data and to improve harvester communications once the technology is in place and implemented.

In closing, I would like to re-emphasize the importance of the federal and the provincial governments, industry organizations and a variety of government departments working together on finding better ways to fight illegal activities across the Atlantic region and across our country. These illegal activities hurt our communities, our provincial economies and our positive international reputation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Fox, for that.

I notice the bells are ringing, and it's counting down. I don't know if people want to go to the House to vote or if they want to vote from here. Is everybody in agreement to vote here? All right.

The vote won't be called for that countdown, so we will watch the clock as it counts down, and then we will do the vote.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

If we all vote simultaneously, we will crash the system over there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes, because of all the good votes going through.

Mr. MacPherson, for five minutes or less, please.

[Ian MacPherson, Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association]

The Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association is pleased to present on this topic of illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing.

We thank the committee chair and the fisheries committee for today's opportunity.

I would like to outline the views of our association, in addition to potential remedies to this serious topic.

The PEIFA has for many years advocated for stronger penalties for any person charged and convicted of crimes that exploit or harm our valuable seafood resources. This also includes providing Department of Fisheries and Oceans officers with victim impact statements that detail the consequences to a fishery that is harmed by illegal activity.

One item that we all must keep in mind is that certain species, such as herring and rock crab, form the critical foundation of our fisheries in eastern Canada. The collapse of these fisheries would essentially lead to a collapse of many other fisheries that rely on these stocks for survival and their important place in the ecosystem. Any illegal activity around these two fisheries should be treated with heightened severity.

The majority of harvesters want a consistent, level playing field so that they can earn their living in a fair and equitable manner.

In addition to increasing fines—for example, to 20% of a vessel's revenue—there should be more stringent consequences for repeat offenders. This should include a decrease in fishing days in the current or future seasons. Available hardware such as on-board cameras could assist in stopping repeat offenders.

It is critical that all harvesters—indigenous and commercial harvesters—regardless of the fishery or type of fishery, be treated in the same way in terms of consequences for resource infractions. All harvesters and communities suffer if illegal activity is not dealt with in a consistent manner and if the same consequences are not applied to all.

In the spring of 2024, the PEIFA will be launching an electronic log application that will record catches and other interactions in real time. This will be a second harvester-based app available in the marketplace, an option that has been designed by harvesters for harvesters.

E-logs will replace the current system, which is fully manual, on paper and manually submitted, and in which it takes approximately six months for the data to be compiled and distributed to industry.

Industry and DFO cannot make informed decisions on our ocean resources if the most current information is not available when those decisions are being made. The e-log option has been discussed since 2014, but is being used in very few fisheries. There is no clear path for widespread implementation, which puts the investment by groups such as the PEIFA in a position of uncertainty. The time for a detailed implementation path is now, and all harvester groups need to be participants once a fishery is activated for e-logs.

Another area of concern is a lack of people resources that dockside monitoring companies can access. The current hiring guidelines do not allow for fishers that hold a license, even if the licenses are not fished, or crew members. In addition, there is a minimum grade 12 educational requirement. This approach seems contrary and outdated in terms of the current climate of labour shortages.

Again, we must ensure that the playing field is kept level and that our ocean resources are not exploited.

The suite of solutions we have offered in this document have been primarily on the harvester side. However, the PEIFA is also advocating that the fines for buyers and/or plants that process illegal lobster be significantly increased.

We recently sent a letter to the Province of Prince Edward Island, suggesting an increased fine for conviction of up to $2 million. We are also seeking that convicted individuals be prevented from holding future licenses or buying or processing licenses.

Although these changes would come under provincial jurisdiction, it takes a multipronged approach by federal and provincial levels of government to keep our ocean resources protected and to stop illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing.

I would like to thank the standing committee for the opportunity to present today and would be pleased to answer any questions at the appropriate time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. MacPherson.

We'll now go to our rounds of questioning. We'll start for six minutes with Mr. Small.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to extend a special “thank you” to our guests for making the trek to Ottawa to be a part of this important study.

My first question is for Mr. Fox.

In terms of DFO C and P enforcement on the water and the wharves, have you compared the current presence to where it was 25 or 30 years ago? In your opinion and in the opinions expressed by stakeholders in your region, is the Department of Fisheries as committed as it should be in order to curb IUU fisheries in the Atlantic region?

[Jamie Fox]

It's very interesting. Actually, I can talk back that far because I policed for over 25 years, back in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. It was more a question of local police departments working with DFO. The DFO officers were on the wharves a lot more. I remember that. We did a lot more checks and department checks in different points of Prince Edward Island to find out where fish and different species of animals were going, and stuff like that.

Nowadays, you do not see that. It's almost as if the wharves know when the DFO guy is going to be there or when he's not. I would have to say, in my opinion, there appear to be fewer conservation officers actually on the road doing enforcement or checks than there were in the past.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Fox.

Mr. MacPherson, do you feel that the trap and net tagging system that's in place now in Atlantic Canada is adequate to curb IUU fishing? Is it as effective as the system it replaced?

[Ian MacPherson]

First of all, I want to declare that the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association is a tag distributor. I think we were third or fourth when organizations or companies were picked. It's something we take very seriously. We certainly don't issue all the tags that are used on Prince Edward Island, as no one organization issues in other provinces.

We've had our challenges with DFO, but one thing a lot of harvesters have said to me is that when DFO issued all the tags for all of Canada, it was almost self-policing. It was a really good system. DFO did a good job of it. There was continuity. Everyone was using the same colours. Everyone knew what colours replacement tags were. Now, I would suggest, we're not seeing that kind of administration.

The other thing that could be tracked quite a bit more easily.... If someone was getting large volumes of replacement tags on an ongoing basis, they could cross-reference that very easily. Now, with a multitude of distributors, I think that's a lot more of a challenge.

It's my understanding now that we have a number of different colours and challenges out there that we didn't have before.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. MacPherson. If there's anything you'd like to add to that in writing, feel free to submit it.

My next question is also for you, Mr. MacPherson. Do you think the Department of Fisheries right now has any idea what the combined total legal and illegal lobster landings are in Atlantic Canada?

[Ian MacPherson]

That's a tough question. I would say no. I think it's something we want to get a handle on across the board in Canada, as was alluded to earlier. It has done a lot of damage to a lot of companies and a lot of communities, so it's something we really need to get under control, and we need to have a sense of urgency for it.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

To Mr. MacPherson, again, on that same line, there were a lot of reports of high landings of lobster this past summer. I've heard that coming out of some bays, it's projected to be 50,000 pounds a day.

Now, I don't know if that's out to lunch or not, but that being said, do you feel the fishing that takes place outside of DFO science-recognized season parameters is going to be detrimental to our lobster stocks down the road?

[Ian MacPherson]

The position our association and other associations have taken for over three or four years has been that we need to all be fishing at the same time, under the same rules and regulations, and that we're all contributing to science and science-based decisions.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

This one is going to be yes or no.

Do you think the Minister of Fisheries should investigate IUU fishing in the lobster industry?

[Ian MacPherson]

Absolutely.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

My next question is for any one of you. Whoever wants to answer it.... You can hash it out.

According to a 2018 World Wildlife Fund report from Brussels, at that point close to 12.5 million euros' worth—$20 million Canadian—of IUU bluefin tuna was caught and sold in Europe. This same stock migrates to Atlantic Canadian waters in the home province of you folks. P.E.I. catches a lot of tuna.

Does IUU fishing of North Atlantic bluefin tuna in international waters affect what can be caught by fishermen in P.E.I. and the rest of Atlantic Canada?

[Jamie Fox]

Yes, it does.

One problem we have is with longliners and bycatch. Longliners can fish it, and the tuna is not calculated as a bycatch. That, of course, affects the quotas allowed and allotted to our fishers in respective provinces under tri-pack agreements among the countries, as they apply to tuna.

Yes, it does affect it. It affects the price and quality, and it also affects reputation.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small. Your time has gone a bit over.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For people watching the proceedings of this committee at home today, Mr. Fox, you said you were the former minister of fisheries for P.E.I., yes or no?

[Jamie Fox]

Yes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You were not given your portfolio back. Is that right?

[Jamie Fox]

I was asked to step down from the portfolio.