Fisheries Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today, both of you. It's really good to have you.

I want to say, on behalf of us all, that we certainly respect the experience, knowledge and background that both of you bring to this. Both of you have been doing this for years.

I've seen Mr. MacPherson at the committee many times. I know that he always brings good testimony and has informative input.

I'm very pleased today to be joined by former minister of fisheries for Prince Edward Island, Jamie Fox. He served as an MLA for a number of years. If my knowledge is correct, Mr. Fox also served as Minister of Fisheries and Communities for four years. I believe that he was one of the longest-serving ministers of fisheries for a province in Canada.

Mr. Fox, you also served as chair of all of the Atlantic ministers of fisheries and oceans for Atlantic Canada. You also incorporated and invited the Quebec minister of fisheries and oceans to join. There were no fewer than five provincial ministers of fisheries and oceans that you chaired. I would say that your depth of knowledge and understanding of this particular issue would probably be among the elite and the best in Canada.

We're really honoured to have you here today. I appreciate your taking the time. Also, your experience in law enforcement is very applicable to what we're talking about here today as well.

Thanks to both of you for being here. I have a couple of questions.

Mr. Fox, I want to start with you and this question.

We're coming to learn about IUU, illegal, unreported and unregulated fishery. How would you describe the impacts within Prince Edward Island of this type of fishery and also within the broader Atlantic context and Quebec, from your experience? What's the input you are hearing and knowledge that you've gained about the effect it's having on local economies? What's the effect on the fish harvesters whose livelihoods are being directly impacted?

[Jamie Fox]

I don't think that anybody really knows the impact in total across the five Atlantic provinces, if you include the province of Quebec. I don't think anybody has a grasp on what communities it hits and what communities it doesn't hit. We know it hits in certain areas more than others.

I will say that the province of Prince Edward Island seems to be a little less impacted by it compared to other areas, but I can tell you that for all five provincial fisheries ministers during the period of 2019 to 2023, it was a concern. We asked that there be more collaboration between several departments, CRA, the RCMP, DFO and, of course, the provinces in getting a handle on what the real impact is.

The impact is big. The fishery in Atlantic Canada is comprised of small fishers. They're small businessmen trying to make money for their families. That money is directly spent inside small towns, harbours, cities and stuff. When you take that money out illegally, there is an impact to the Government of Canada, the province itself and also the community.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I have just a follow-up to that.

Obviously, we've come to know that it is the responsibility of the federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to understand how much fish is being caught in order to uphold the principles of conservation and protect the future livelihoods of fish harvesters across the country from coast to coast. The fact that we've already heard testimony that there really is no firm establishment of those kinds of numbers and the effects they're having makes it seem like there is a definite falling short of meeting the federal responsibility at this point in getting a handle on the IUU fishery.

Has that been your experience as well? Are you finding that, when you're hearing from other ministers who were in this role at the Atlantic table and the five that you chaired? Does there need to be much more involvement at the federal level to get a handle on this?

[Jamie Fox]

If you look at the narcotics trade, illegal tobacco, firearms or anything like that, the federal government does a fairly good job in knowing through intelligence what is being moved in those three illicit trades. When it comes to the fishery, because of the size of the fishery and the number of ports and harbours that are involved across the Atlantic region, it's harder to get a clear understanding.

There needs to be more intelligence-gathering. With that, you need to involve more departments within the federal government that can provide background data to get some kind of baseline.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon. Your five minutes are up. I'm sorry.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Quickly, to Mr. MacPherson, from my colleagues, is there an acknowledgement now within the fishing industry that we should be looking at dockside monitoring on the key lobster fishery?

[Ian MacPherson]

I can't say that specifically, no, but we work with our dockside monitoring companies in that situation.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I agree. The fishery has gotten extremely valuable over the years.

The other part, too, is in your presentation. Am I correct in interpreting that the PEIFA acknowledged that technology must play an important part of regulating the fishery and ensuring that its landings are accurate?

[Ian MacPherson]

Yes. I would say that's accurate.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you.

Mr. Fox, I want to go to you. You were the minister for four years, as you pointed out, so you were responsible for licensing buyers and processors.

Are you aware of all the lobster that was bought by those buyers in every given year?

[Jamie Fox]

No, not completely—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

However, you were responsible, as the minister. You had sole jurisdiction over licensing buyers and processors.

[Jamie Fox]

That's right.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Did your enforcement mechanism report to you the quantity of product that those buyers you licensed were landing?

[Jamie Fox]

Yes.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

You know the amount.

[Jamie Fox]

The problem is that there's no corresponding data between the dockside on the federal side and the provincial.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

During your time as minister, how many buyers or processors were charged by the province?

[Jamie Fox]

None, that I'm aware of.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

During your time as minister, what regulation changes did you make as they related to fines and penalties for buyers and processors?

[Jamie Fox]

There's actually a review being done of the fines structure.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

No. When you were the minister for four years, did you change any of the fines?

[Jamie Fox]

No.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

You made reference to the fact that you really needed to increase the fines for them to be a deterrent.

[Jamie Fox]

No.