Evidence of meeting #90 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fines.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Mr. MacPherson, are you in contact with your Quebec counterparts regarding illegal fishing?
12:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
We work with our colleagues in Quebec on a regular basis on a number of issues. We're dealing with a lot of other things, but we haven't had direct conversations about that. Could you be a little more specific?
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Have you heard about similar problems with illegal fishing in Quebec?
12:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
My understanding is that it's a widespread problem for our east coast fisheries.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Is it something you could work together to address? Could the fishers join forces to have a stronger voice with the department, say?
12:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
I would suggest that we're doing that now, but there's always room, I'm sure, for more dialogue. It's a concern, because we're threatening the future of the fishery for everyone.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Yes, that's what I was thinking. Illegal fishing is going on, it's intrusive, and it's hurting not only the resource itself, but also the economy and the playing field among fishers. If fishers in Atlantic Canada joined forces, would it send a strong message? Is that something you've considered? Is it doable? Is it something that makes sense to you?
12:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
Certainly. That's why we've been an advocate for higher fines, stiffer fines, suspensions and whatever it takes to send a strong message. That's the concern, that it becomes the cost of doing business for some people.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
You're calling for significantly stiffer penalties and fines. You even said that licence holders who break the law should face stricter licence conditions.
What's your relationship with the department like in that regard? Do officials listen to you, or would you say the discussion is unfocused, slow and cumbersome?
12:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
We have seen an improvement in P.E.I. in terms of fines being increased. As I mentioned earlier, we do victim impact statements. It puts the association in an awkward position, because generally you're writing a statement that involves one of your members.
That being said, we need the deterrence, and this is something new that we're putting forward. If a fine is relative to the gross income of a boat, that would send a very strong message. Obviously, in this room we cannot directly influence the legal system, but we are making detailed requests in a number of cases.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Here's an analogy with illicit drugs. In Quebec, when authorities seize drugs or impose a heavy fine for illegal drug trafficking, the money they recover is used to fund and improve monitoring activities.
Is that something that could apply to illegal fishing?
12:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
Certainly, we support a better job being done and more resources being put towards monitoring and enforcement.
I'll make a brief comment. There's a whole, huge, recreational fishery side that DFO has to regulate and oversee, too. It's not just the commercial fishery; there are lots of fisheries that they are responsible for.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Yes, of course. That's something we will be studying soon. It was my idea, in fact.
I don't have much time left, so I'll wrap up with this question. What is your most pressing requirement? Is it more money, more technology or stiffer fines?
12:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
I think consulting fishing groups and asking for specific recommendations would be a good thing. Most of what we proposed here today was more related to fines and penalties to discourage this being a cost of doing business.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Madame Desbiens.
We've gone a little bit over time.
We'll now go to Mr. Boulerice for six minutes or less, please.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Since we'll probably have to go vote in five minutes, I assume my time will be split in two.
I'm very happy to be here today. Given my personal and professional experience and the fact that I represent a riding in central Montreal, I'm really glad I'm the one asking you questions, not the other way around. That would be an unpleasant situation for me.
Either of you can answer my first question.
A recent report by the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development revealed that DFO still isn't able to collect the accurate comprehensive catch data it needs to sustainably manage fisheries in Canada and protect fish stocks. That finding is further to a 2016 audit, so seven years later. The department has apparently done very little, almost nothing.
Why do you think the department is still unable to collect all of that information and data in order to sustainably protect fish stocks?
12:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
That's an excellent point. We go back to the discussion in 2014. The original implementation date for electronic logs for lobster, for example, was to be 2018 or 2019, but it keeps getting moved. It's a significant capital investment, so it's very hard to get things implemented if there's no implementation date.
12:10 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
Thanks, Chair.
Again, on that too, one problem with the science for a number of years was that, because of COVID, a lot of the science vessels and the data collection were put on hold for a two- to three-year period. Of course, that affected our numbers in terms of what was actually available out there for stocks or that continued work.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Now that the pandemic is over, do you think DFO can improve its planning and resource capacity, to better understand and quantify illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing?
12:10 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
From what I understand, now that DFO is actually getting back up to get the science vessels out there on the water and the work is starting to be collected, it's going to take a collaborative approach between the provinces to also assist in that collection of data on our stocks and our species as it applies all across Atlantic Canada. I'm not too familiar with what happens out in British Columbia, but there is a willingness there.
I did chair the Atlantic ministers, and I brought forth the Province of Quebec back in 2019, under then minister Bernadette Jordan. We had a good relationship. It was all agreed by the Atlantic ministers, including from the Province of Quebec, that there should be more of a collaborative approach when it comes to the science and knowledge of our stocks between the provinces and the federal government.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
During her appearance before the committee on October 26, 2023, Ms. Lebouthillier, the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, said that even when people are caught fishing illegally, “the fines imposed are very low compared to the profit the people make from this fishing.” The minister, herself, admitted that just recently.
How should DFO ensure that fines and prosecutions are proportional to the profit illegal fishing generates? As you pointed out, when offenders making huge profits face low fines, they just see the fines as the cost of doing business.
Do you want to see measures in place to ensure that fines are really proportional to offenders' profits and catch sizes?
12:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
One of the things we're seeing more often now is these lost fishing days also being part of the penalty. Perhaps an offender loses the first week of fishing at the start of the next season, which, typically, can be a very high-revenue week. Things like that in conjunction with fines, I think, are a good step forward.
12:15 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
That's a very interesting question.
One problem is that the justice system fails to take into account the importance of the fishery and the actions of fishers out there on the water. I think case law.... In some cases, we have prosecutors not asking for the fines to be increased for repeat offenders in how they're affecting the actual fisheries.
I think there needs to be more education in the Department of Justice or for the Crown prosecutors on what the ramifications are. A case in point would be that not too long ago, on the coast of British Columbia, there was a crab fisher who was caught with a bunch of illegal sales. The fine was very low. It's almost like a cost of doing business.
It affects your small communities greatly in other provinces and other areas. I think we must make sure that our courts system actually takes into account how important these issues are.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.
We're going to suspend for a moment now, as we're waiting for the vote to be called. We'll get our phones and see if we can identify ourselves on the camera.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
We'll get back to questioning now.
We thank the witnesses for their patience.
We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less, please.