Evidence of meeting #6 for Subcommittee on Food Safety in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was food.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Doyle  Executive Director, Dairy Farmers of Canada
Robert de Valk  Executive Secretary, Canadian Association of Regulated Importers
Réjean Bouchard  Assistant Director , Policy and Dairy Production, Dairy Farmers of Canada
Sylvain Charlebois  Associate Professor, University of Regina, As an Individual

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I would actually like to read something into the record here. I think we might be interested in having a bit of discussion about this.

I have it posted at 5:02 p.m., an article on CanWest, that reads, “New independent food inspection agency needed: Expert”, by reporter Sarah Schmidt, Ottawa:

The federal government should establish an independent food safety agency reporting directly to Parliament because the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is failing consumers, a leading food-safety expert on Monday told parliamentarians probing the listeriosis outbreak.

Sylvain Charlebois, co-author of the 2008 Food Safety Performance World Ranking and business professor at the University of Regina, blasted the CFIA's “dual mandate” of protecting the public and assessing risk within the agri-food industry.

“The CFIA is inherently hardwired to assess risks and contain threats,” Charlebois told the special hearings, saying a reconfigured CFIA should stick to working with industry to promote international trade.

But Charlebois also cautioned the lawmakers sitting on the special panel investigating the state of food safety in Canada, convened after last summer's deadly listeriosis outbreak traced to contaminated meat, about the “overregulation syndrome” that has “overtaken our food safety agenda.”

The “epidemics and their tragic outcomes can be minimized only by policies that address the complex, interlinked natures of our food economies. The 'let's inspect more' mantra is much too simple,” Charlebois testified.

“I can honestly say that it is now less challenging to build a hospital than it is to start a slaughtering plant in Canada. Regulations, both provincial and federal, are unbearable. Canada doesn't need more regulation, although it needs a different approach to food safety.”

Currently, Health Canada develops guidelines related to food policy, while the CFIA, for which the minister of agriculture is responsible, is tasked with inspection and enforcement.

An independent food safety agency that “focuses solely on consumer concerns” and reports directly to Parliament would not be stuck between the “two silos” of Health Canada and the agriculture ministry.

The CFIA has faced criticism of its double mandate ever since the former Liberal government under Jean Chrétien created it in 1997, but concerns over the practicality of ensuring the safety of the food supply while charged with facilitating exports for the agri-food industry have grown louder in recent months.

Ronald Doering, who served as the CFIA's president from 1997 to 2002 and is now a partner at the law firm Gowling Lafleur Henderson, on Monday characterized as “silly” Charlebois's proposal to “hive off food safety” to a body reporting to Parliament instead of to a minister.

“The principle consensus all around was if you're going to reorganize how you're going to do food safety, animal heath and plant protection, you've got to make sure you've got accountability right. All parties agreed that we needed to have the agency report directly to a minister in the traditional way, and there could be no doubt that the minister the agency reported to would be accountable for its work,” Doering said of the negotiations to create the CFIA.

Doering also said it's “simplistic” to argue the CFIA's dual mandate presents a problem for consumers. Rather, he said Canadians are well-served by putting “the whole food chain in a single enforcement agency, so the CFIA is responsible for seeds, feed, fertilizer, all plant health, all animal health, all food, all commodities because they are all connected.”

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Just hold on, there's a point of order.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

On a point of order, could David explain what his point of order is, really? I think I know, and I partly agree with him, I think. What's his point of order?

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I think his point of order, from what I have so far, is that this is a press release or article or something that basically speaks to testimony Mr. Charlebois hasn't even given before the committee. I'd like to hear the rest of it, and probably at the end of it I'm going to ask Mr. Anderson if he could maybe give it to the committee so that we could all see it.

Please continue.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay, it's nearly done, Mr. Chair.

Besides, added Doering, the system isn't broken.

“The Canadian food, animal health and plant regulatory system is admired around the world. The idea we can export to 100 countries food, animal, or plants without inspection has to say something about the credibility of the regulatory agency.”

That's the end of the article.

You are right, Mr. Chair, I don't know if it's a point of privilege or a point of order, but I'm concerned by the fact that prior to the committee's even having heard the witness, we already have an article in the public talking about the testimony that we apparently heard. It sounds like it's in the past tense. I have a question about the journalistic integrity involved here as well, but that's not the issue for this committee, I don't think. It is a question of a balanced presentation.

I'm just wondering if this a publicity stunt or something else. I think it shows tremendous disrespect for the committee, for having gone out ahead of the presentation of the testimony and then having released that publicly. The committee does not have it yet, and I think we should have been the ones to hear it first.

The headline doesn't even seem to be borne out by the article's contents. But I'm wondering if anybody else here is concerned, and I'm actually wondering if there's any reason for us to go through with the meeting or if we should be adjourning ahead of this all.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I'll get to you, André.

Mr. Charlebois, I don't know whether you have any comments on that, but as Mr. Anderson pointed out, it does appear that you've either given something to somebody about your proposed testimony, which you haven't given, or they've made this up themselves. I don't know whether you have any comments. Before I go to Mr. Bellavance, I'm going to give you that opportunity, if you so wish.

May 4th, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.

Sylvain Charlebois Associate Professor, University of Regina, As an Individual

I can allow Mr. Bellavance a response, and then I'll produce my comments.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Bellavance.

5:50 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Well, you will be surprised to see that I am going to take Mr. Charlebois's side. There are many issues on which we do not agree at all. However, this is hardly the first time that one of our witnesses has expressed views on certain topics, and that includes the one under discussion here today. Since the beginning of the listeriosis crisis, Mr. Charlebois was one of the people who wrote the most about the subject. I think it can be extremely useful to benefit from his expertise. I fail to see why the fact that he expressed another one of his opinions on this subject in an article published today causes any problem. Whether we agree with him or not is of no importance.

And I would also like to remind the committee that the government itself can do this type of thing. We were in the process of studying the "Product of Canada" issue at the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, when, right in the middle of our proceedings, Prime Minister Harper and the Minister of Agriculture went out and made some announcements on this. We had not even finished our work. That is what I call a lack of respect for the committee.

For his part, Mr. Charlebois did what he usually does. He regularly expresses his opinions on many topics having to do with the agri-food sector. I really do not see why the text that has just been read would cause any particular problem at this point.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

The only thing I would point out, Mr. Bellavance, is that the difference is that it's not a matter of opinion that's in question. It was a comment about what he gave as testimony, and here we are at quarter to six or whatever it is, and we still haven't heard that testimony. That's what's in dispute, I would say.

Mr. Charlebois.

5:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Regina, As an Individual

Sylvain Charlebois

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Out of respect for this committee, I think I owe an explanation of what happened. I think I know what happened.

Last night I was preparing my notes for this evening's presentation, and the reporter in question called me at home. She knew that I was going to be here tonight and she asked me for my notes. I said this meeting wasn't going to end before 7 o'clock tonight, so I basically issued an embargo on the story until 7 o'clock tonight Eastern Time.

Needless to say, Mr. Chair, I'm disappointed. That's all I have to say.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Okay.

Does that answer your question, Mr. Anderson?

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

It may answer the question. It doesn't make me any happier that we're having to deal with a situation where testimony has been put on the wire ahead of our hearing it, and I guess I'm disappointed that Mr. Bellavance doesn't see that as an issue for the committee. But if it's not, and we're going to set that standard here, then that's fine.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Charlebois.

5:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Regina, As an Individual

Sylvain Charlebois

With all due respect, with the story, there is a filter. A reporter wrote the article. The reporter didn't use my words. She interviewed other people that I wasn't aware of, so it is a story on a website. It is not my testimony. I have other things to say, and I intend to say them.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Just to be clear, Mr. Charlebois, you're saying that what she referred to in there as your testimony did not come from you? Is that what you're saying?

5:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Regina, As an Individual

Sylvain Charlebois

No. That's not what I'm saying. I haven't seen the article, obviously. I've just been told that it's been reported on the website.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I haven't seen it either.

5:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Regina, As an Individual

Sylvain Charlebois

There's nothing really new about what was read there. These opinions have been public knowledge for many months.

I see this committee as being constructive, looking at the listeria outbreak and looking at possibilities to make our systems better. Nothing I've heard intended that effect....

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Easter.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Chair, I don't think it's good when something is reported as having been put before the committee when it hasn't been put before the committee. Having been before many committees in a former life, I can see how things can happen. You might give somebody an advance brief; you might do an interview with them. I think it's wrong to have reported it as if it had been tabled with the committee prior to it being done. I guess it's part of the dilemma of modern news when it can get out in the 24-hour cycle so fast.

Having said that, I hope it doesn't happen with other witnesses or with government, or even ourselves, for that matter. I do believe we have to hear from Mr. Charlebois as a witness in terms of his full presentation, and then we can compare notes with what's in the press. That's where I'm at on it.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you.

Hearing no further comment, Mr. Charlebois--I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly--you have 10 minutes or less, please.

5:55 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Regina, As an Individual

Sylvain Charlebois

I'm originally from Quebec and I live in Saskatchewan. My name has been destroyed many, many times.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Well, it isn't deliberate, anyway.

5:55 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Regina, As an Individual

Sylvain Charlebois

I do have to take some part of the responsibility for what has happened with the news wire, unfortunately. It's a bit embarrassing. A trust has been breached, unfortunately, between me and the reporter, so I do apologize for that.

Mr. Chairman and honourable members of the committee, I think you just got a copy of my basic notes. I'm sorry for the handwriting. I was called by the clerk, I believe, on Tuesday or Wednesday of last week, and for me as the associate dean of graduate studies for my faculty, it's a very, very busy time of the year. So I tried my best to bring my thoughts together for this important meeting.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to address you today on such an important subject matter. As you may know, the University of Regina has published many studies on risk communication over the last few years: mad cow disease,the spinach recall with E. coli, the tomato recall with salmonella, and now Maple Leaf food products contaminated with listeria.