Evidence of meeting #22 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was force.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC
No, I'm talking about the resolutions calling for an arms embargo. Amnesty International has already said that these resolutions don't go far enough.
12:40 p.m.
Director, Sudan Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I know the British are undertaking a study of this, to look at ways in which we can strengthen that resolution for I think arms through third parties. This is one of the problems that Amnesty International flagged in its report, that a country like Canada, or any other country, exports to a country where there are no embargoes and then that country re-exports, and it's very difficult to control.
We will be very interested in what the British are proposing to do to help us all put some kind of control on this.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB
Perhaps I could jump in. I'll have to be quite aggressive to get in here ahead of Mr. Obhrai, but I have one quick question, and it came to mind as you were mentioning this.
I know that at the United Nations our ambassador has been working hard, but we are one voice. I'm sure he's working behind the scenes, but we're only one voice at the United Nations--and I'm sure we're pushing quite hard.
What allies would we have or would the cause have in other African nations that may be supportive, that may help give us guidance on how to convince the government to change its viewpoint on letting the United Nations help? Do we have some allies in Africa?
12:45 p.m.
Director, Sudan Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
We certainly do. Starting with the African Union itself, it has called for a transition. Mr. Konare has been very proactive. Most recently, I think he's travelled to Sudan on a number of occasions to personally plead with Bashir to do something. The troop-contributing countries of Senegal, Rwanda, South Africa, and Nigeria have been very proactive at the leadership level, at the head-of-government level. As I said earlier, there is a plan collectively for those presidents to travel to Sudan in the next week or so, to keep that pressure up. We're in very good company in Africa, I think, and we look to them to really facilitate this transition.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
Just following on that question, Janet, on my trip down to the Great Lakes countries, at each and every stop I made I told the African leaders that they needed to put pressure on Sudan. The feedback I got from the African leaders was that, yes, they need to put pressure on Sudan and they are going to put pressure on Sudan, but other issues that affect their own region take priority over this for them.
We have had delegations come here from Algeria and northern Africa, and the same issue was raised with them. The key point is that this is very much becoming an important African issue. It is true that we on the outside can provide the technical knowledge, but as my other colleague said, we cannot walk in there with our eyes closed by ourselves. Nobody has that capacity.
In answering your question, I believe the Africans need to take this issue up, with our assistance. We have had suggestions, using this act of responsibility, about going in there and doing things by ourselves. That is not a practical solution. But in my talks with them I have found that there is an appetite among the African leaders to address this. Diplomatically, that is the arena. What they are looking for from us, from Canada, is what they lack, and that is the technical expertise and the financial support for them to effectively do so in that situation.
If we really want to solve this issue, which you've just pointed out, we should go through the Security Council. I can tell you that when we go through the Security Council, that is the approach that even they're going to take, because other donors like us who want to bring peace to that region will want to use the African Union.
The President of Sudan has already stated that this could become another Iraq if white troops end up over there. This word “jihad” will start popping up and change the whole dynamic of the war. It will change the whole dynamic of the region and of the conflict, and then it will become a conflict moving in another direction.
So we need to maintain this focus that more African Union involvement is needed there, and that's where we should—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. Obhrai. You didn't really leave much room for any response, so we won't take any.
Mr. Martin.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
Just in closing, I want to echo the comments of Mr. Obhrai. You have a tough job to do. You're our public servants, and we have tremendous respect and gratitude for the work you do. It's very difficult.
There are a couple of things I would like to ask you, Madame Jacovella and Madame Norton. Could you table with the committee the specific investments that CIDA is using in western Sudan, in Darfur, and also in southern Sudan? As you said, we cannot forget about the trauma being inflicted on that part of the country.
I would also just like to ask you something, Madame Graham. As Professor Cotler said, there is a no-fly zone. I was in southern Sudan. I've seen Hind helicopter attack gunships on the ground with their bucket pods empty. We know Sudan uses Hind choppers to go down there and kill innocent civilians.
Will we advocate and are we pushing for the enforcement of the no-fly zone? Will we push for the prosecution, in the International Criminal Court, of the fifty people in the regime of President Bashir identified for crimes against humanity?
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
I'm sorry to interrupt, but on a point of order, will we be able to deal with the committee business before we wrap up?
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
My clock says it's 12:50. We will entertain, first of all, a motion to deal with that one motion by Madame McDonough. It will take unanimous consent. If we get that, then we will be proceeding into committee business.
12:50 p.m.
Director, Sudan Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
On the two points that you raised, the African Union cannot enforce the no-fly zone that exists. That's why, again, there's a need for a UN mission to put effect to the resolution. I think there's a “locally based hostile aircraft” reference in the resolution.
In terms of the ICC, we are very supportive of their efforts. In fact, Canada made the first contribution of $500,000 for those very investigations in Darfur for the ICC.
The problem, of course, is that ICC access to the region is very limited, and obviously witnesses need to come forward. It's going to be a challenge, but I understand that they are recommitted to the task and are going to try to find ways to get into Darfur to do the kinds of investigations they need to do.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much.
I just want to ask one quick question. It's more to Madam Jacovella. I listened to the summary of how big a crisis this is, so this is just to give me a little bit of an understanding of part of what we're doing with these donor communities.
You talked about a couple of different areas, and that's what I liked about your presentation. You talked about health care, you talked about education, you talked about transportation, and how it's a balanced approach.
On the 840 medical kits that you gave out, how big are these kits? What are they? Are they small kits that people can carry back to their families? Are they kits that help to resource hospitals? What's in them?
You also talked about educational kits, and then the 950,000 textbooks. What is in those educational kits?
12:50 p.m.
Director General, East, the Horn and Southern Africa Division, Canadian International Development Agency
I can't give you a detailed list of what's in the kits, but the medical kits are meant for clinics. They're not for individuals. They would contain vaccines, swabs, or anything that is necessary to clean injuries. We're really talking at this point about basic health services. We're talking about vaccines for children or anything like that.
In terms of the educational kits, we often focus on textbooks, but those kids need things in addition to the textbooks. They need basic things like a pen, a pencil, an eraser, paper, and a ruler. Those are the kinds of kits that are put together so that the children can actually have something that we wouldn't even think about needing.
We're really talking about basic needs at this point. Our hope is that as we evolve and as the situation improves and the capacity improves, then we can provide more developed services.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Would those be fairly universal kits? Would they be similar to what we use in Afghanistan in the educational kits? Are they the same?
12:55 p.m.
Director General, East, the Horn and Southern Africa Division, Canadian International Development Agency
We work with some of the multilateral agencies to provide these services, so I would assume they're very similar, yes.
All of the services that are offered in terms of northern and southern Sudan have been based on an assessment by experts from different countries and the UN. They have looked at what it is they actually need and where they need it. Our funding has been allocated to a multi-donor trust fund to make sure we are pooling resources and meeting the basic needs of these people.
12:55 p.m.
Leslie Norton Acting Director General, Humanitarian Assistance, Peace and Security, Multilateral Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency
I would just add that UNICEF has a program called School in a Box. Essentially, you could be sitting under a shady tree and they will show up with School in a Box, which includes many of the elements that Diane just outlined. It's designed to let them be able to go anywhere and set up a school where there is a grouping of people brought together, if you don't have a classroom there.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Do we have groups in Canada...? We're now coming into the Christmas season. We know Samaritan's Purse puts out the Christmas box, with a toothbrush and all those things. Are there efforts where we can raise funds and can know that money goes directly to educational kits or health kits or something like that? I know we can bring it out of CIDA funds, but there's nothing like that, is there?
12:55 p.m.
Acting Director General, Humanitarian Assistance, Peace and Security, Multilateral Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency
Having been a trick-or-treater as a child, I remember UNICEF boxes were always a common piece. They are an example of how the UNICEF Canada committee is raising funds. As for whether it goes to Darfur or other places, they have a broad range of activities throughout the world, and Darfur would be definitely one place that funds would go to.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you.
We want to thank you folks for coming here today. I know this motion was appreciated, because we all recognize the importance of the work in Darfur. Canada is involved around the world. Sometimes we get too caught up in just one part, one exercise, or one theatre, and we don't realize where we are in other places. So thank you very much for being here.
At this point, I would entertain a motion to go to committee business. We need unanimous consent.
Mr. Martin, it's to deal with Madame McDonough's motion that's coming forward.
Do we have a motion?
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
We do have a motion. Members should have the motion. The notice of motion was sent out.
It is that the committee urges the Government of Canada—