Evidence of meeting #42 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christopher Alexander  Deputy Special Representative of the Secretary General for Afghanistan, United Nations
James Appathurai  Spokesman, NATO International Staff, North Atlantic Treaty Organization
Gord Steeves  First Vice-President, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Brock Carlton  Director, International Centre for Municipal Development, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Angela Crandall

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, colleagues.

I call the meeting to order. This is meeting number 42 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, Tuesday, February 28, 2007.

This morning, in our first hour, we will have a briefing on the situation in Afghanistan. We're delighted to have today two witnesses appear before our committee.

First of all, we have from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, NATO, James Appathurai, who is a spokesman on their behalf this morning. We welcome you.

Also we have from the United Nations Christopher Alexander, deputy special representative of the Secretary General for Afghanistan. Welcome to the foreign affairs committee.

Our committee has undertaken a number of different studies, some dealing more with international development, others dealing with perhaps the specifics of foreign affairs. I don't like really differentiating between those two. We have had a study of democratic development and how Canada's involved in democratic development. And now we undertake a bit of a briefing and a study on Afghanistan and Canada's role in Afghanistan, progress made in Afghanistan, and the situation of Afghanistan. To that end, we welcome you.

As you know, we will have opening comments--we usually give approximately 10 minutes to each person for opening comments--and then we'll proceed into the first round of questioning, 10-minute rounds for each party, and then into the second round if time permits. We have a guest coming in the second hour, so at about five minutes before 10 o'clock we will conclude.

Again, welcome here. We look forward to your comments.

Mr. Alexander, do you wish to begin?

9:05 a.m.

Christopher Alexander Deputy Special Representative of the Secretary General for Afghanistan, United Nations

With pleasure. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. And thanks to all of you committee members for inviting us to appear before you today.

The mission in Afghanistan is one that has a high profile in Canada, that is dear to the hearts of Canadians because so many resources and so many principles are on the line. But it's also one in which the interests and the capabilities of some of the world's principal international organizations are heavily engaged.

It's a real pleasure to be able to appear before you with my colleague James Appathurai—another Canadian, representing the North Atlantic Treaty Organization—and in my capacity representing the United Nations, which has a long and proud history in Afghanistan. It dates back to the late 1940s, when some of the very first United Nations programs, particularly for specialized agencies, were rolled out in Afghanistan.

I would argue—and I'll say more about the UN role in Afghanistan later—that the UN's role in the world and its effectiveness in the world as an agent of change, as a network supporting the project of nation building in Afghanistan, is very much being tested--being put to the test, and in many cases, I will argue on behalf of my United Nations colleagues, passing the test.

But obviously the United Nations is only as good as its constituent members. The same goes for NATO. Canada, with its long history of heavy involvement both in framing United Nations mandates and in helping to achieve results for the United Nations, has a very key role to play. The sorts of investments that were announced yesterday by the government in reconstruction, in development, and in capacity building are exactly the sorts of commitments that the United Nations needs from its key member states in order to deliver for Afghans and to deliver for the international community in Afghanistan today.

So I'd like to start by congratulating Canada, and here I mean not just the Canadian government but Canadian society, for its substantial and growing commitment to one of the great international causes of our time: the development and rebuilding of Afghanistan after a quarter-century of conflict.

I speak of Canada as a society because you are there in all of your guises. Canada's government agencies responsible for international policy are there obviously in a big way, but so are Canadian NGOs, so are Canadian experts, so are Canadian private sector companies, and so are Canadian families. So is Canadian civil society, which has strong connections, obviously, to Afghanistan, rebuilding shattered lives, helping to rebuild communities, helping to relaunch a process of development, peace building, and institutional renewal in Afghanistan today.

It's a very proud occasion for me as a Canadian to be able to report to all of you that this role within the United Nations family, for Canada and for Canadians, remains extremely prominent and extremely well appreciated at all levels in Afghanistan as a society.

This was never simply a mission to disrupt terrorist bases. It has become a key proving ground for the challenge of nation building, a test of the will of the international community both to support poverty reduction and to back the emergence of new institutions in a country that quite frankly, after 25 years of acute conflict, richly deserved both.

It's important to start out by observing that our achievements in Afghanistan to date are already substantial. In 2001, access to health care was negligible--in some parts of the country non-existent. Today, over 85% of the population has access to a basic package of health care services.

The economy of Afghanistan amounted in 2002 to approximately $3.4 billion U.S. That's the estimate from international financial institutions of the scale of the legitimate economy, the non-poppy economy, in 2002. In 2006 it was estimated at $7.9 billion U.S. In other words, the legitimate economy has more than doubled in size in only five years. That growth has actually outpaced the growth of the illegal economy, which is nevertheless very worrying and a question to which we should return during this discussion.

Per capita income in Afghanistan was only $150 U.S. per year in 2002. That's the best estimate. Today it stands well above $300 U.S. Trade with neighbouring Pakistan and Iran has burgeoned.

Let's take just the case of Pakistan. Under the Taliban, in the final year of record keeping, bilateral trade between Pakistan and Afghanistan was $25 million. That's a paltry sum for countries that have a border of over 2,000 kilometres. Today the total trade between the two countries, for 2006, stands at over $1.5 billion, and probably in 2007 it will reach well over $2 billion, or even $2.5 billion.

The Afghan currency has been reformed and remains stable. Inflation is low. The Afghan budget is balanced, and revenues have grown by over 30% in each of the past three years. Thousands of schools have been built or reopened, placing 5.4 million children in education, which is a historic high for the country and, above all, a historic and internationally important record for the number of girls in school in Afghanistan today.

Afghanistan has experienced the most ambitious road building period of its history. New transmission lines are now under construction. They will bring power to Kabul in the necessary quantities by 2008 and to the main cities of southern Afghanistan, including Kandahar, by 2009.

The poverty that remains such an abject barrier to advancement for so many Afghans often blinds us to the scale of this progress. It is, to our mind, one of the minor tragedies of the Afghan story to date that this forward movement, these substantial achievements, improvements to the lives of Afghans, are under-recognized in the outside world and under-recognized, quite frankly, in the constituencies that deserve to know that their intervention has made a difference most of all.

That includes, obviously, Canadian public opinion, where, quite frankly, the story has not been told. The reports of your committee, of the government, helped to tell the story. Media, quite frankly, have not helped us as much as we would like. This is a continuing challenge that we could perhaps discuss in the course of today's session.

It's not everyone who chooses to celebrate the fact that they now have $30 per month rather than $10 per month to live on. But this is, for Afghans, a fact of life. They are poor, but they have two or three times the resources, in many cases, that they had four or five years ago, and for them it is a cause for celebration. This advancement, this improvement, after 25 years of deterioration is a sign that things are changing.

No one is satisfied. No one in Afghanistan will tell you they have received enough. No one will tell you that all of the assistance or even most of the assistance has been effective. We're still learning. But we have had an impact and we do have results to show.

For Afghan men and women these numbers count. They have created and maintained a level of hope within the Afghan population, and this is one of the essential ingredients in our involvement. They are proof that peace and a better life are truly possible for Afghans, and it is our hope that we will be able to continue improving their lives, in cooperation with the international community.

Nonetheless, there are still groups intent on proving that the end to this conflict is not yet in sight. In 2001, the Taliban regime was not dismantled; it was simply pushed back beyond Afghanistan's borders and somewhat forgotten until 2002-03.

In the intervening five years, the Taliban have recovered and to some extent reconstituted themselves. They have found new funding sources and reconnected with old allies.

Last year in southern Afghanistan, with a transition under way from U.S. to NATO leadership, the Taliban set out to challenge government authority in Kandahar. It set out to show that Afghanistan's clocks were once again turning back to 1999--or even to 1994, the first year the Taliban phenomenon really became known in Afghanistan--to a time when girls were barred from school; when summary justice was meted out across Afghanistan with blatant disregard for due process and human rights; when, quite frankly, terrorists took charge of this very important country and extended their influence over the region of South Asia and the whole world.

In September 2006, the response of the international community to this threat was Operation Medusa, a conventional military response to a stubborn enemy of peace. It was the first brigade-level combat in NATO history. It was a battle waged and won primarily by Canadians, with the strong support of allies and the sanction of the United Nations Security Council.

Medusa changed the insurgent landscape in southern Afghanistan. It restored hope. It rallied the tribes. It devastated Taliban morale. In the end, it brought roads, jobs, and rural development projects to Panjwai and Zherai districts, which at this time last year were starting to become sanctuaries for the Taliban and places from which they were able to operate in other parts of the country. In short, Medusa allowed the Government of Afghanistan to regain the advantage in its deadly contest of wills with the resurgent Taliban.

In the month of December in Kandahar province, President Karzai spent a total of five days, the longest period since he took office. His rural development minister visited battle-affected communities. In the intervening weeks, the Afghan national director of security made inroads against suicide bombing facilitation networks in Kandahar, Khowst, and Kabul. Also in December, Mullah Akhtar Usmani, the number three leader of the Taliban, was killed in a NATO-led operation.

So Medusa has been a pivotal moment in the recent history of security in Afghanistan and in the south. Those who stood behind Afghanistan in those operations, behind Afghan National Army soldiers and behind the Afghan government, deserve an enormous amount of credit for showing a tough enemy that NATO means business, that security will be brought to southern Afghanistan whatever the cost, and that our commitment across the board, from the United Nations to NATO to member states, remains extremely strong.

Security is not the whole story. The success of operations like Medusa has cleared the way for a development process that is very much on track. The Afghanistan Compact, which was agreed to in London during January and early February 2006, is a unique framework for organizing the effort of 60 nations, all the principal international financial institutions, all the principal organizations, in support of a nation building process. The benchmarks and the objectives outlined in that Afghanistan Compact have been shown over the past year to be the right ones, to be ones worthy of being pursued, to be emblematic of the nation building project that everyone is trying to achieve in Afghanistan.

It is no accident that many of those involved in post-conflict situations in other parts of the world have sought to emulate the Afghanistan Compact to bring together, to orchestrate, international efforts--in Haiti, in Iraq, in other parts of the world--on the same sorts of principles as we are now trying to observe and to implement in Afghanistan.

The United Nations remains at the heart of this effort. There are upwards of 5,000 UN personnel in Afghanistan. This is a fact that is little known in Canada and the outside world, where the focus tends to be on NATO, on the military mission. But these are civilians, and they are part of the largest political mission the United Nations has. It's also an integrated mission, where the expertise of over 20 UN agencies, programs, and funds is brought to bear on the challenges of Afghans, particularly in rural communities, where most Afghans live on a daily basis.

The United Nations has delivered up to one-fifth of all the assistance that has gone to Afghanistan in the past five years. We have overseen the holding of elections. We have implemented rural development projects. We have implemented, even in the conditions of insurgency this year, inoculation programs for the most devastating diseases that have affected children in Afghanistan, even in the war-affected south.

These achievements have not come without cost. Like all of those who work in Afghanistan today, United Nations staff face security risks. But those risks are judged by all of us to be worth taking, given the results we are able to achieve, given the presence across the country, including in Kandahar and neighbouring provinces, that the UN and other civilian agencies are able to maintain and indeed strengthen now, at the beginning of 2007, as a result of the military success in 2006 that we were all so pleased to observe.

There remain enormous challenges in Afghanistan today. Security is foremost among them, and we should spend the necessary time in this discussion literally going over the shape of that challenge and what the possible solutions are today.

The development challenge remains enormous. Despite a doubling of GDP, Afghanistan remains one of the poorest countries in the world. It is really surpassed in the acuteness of its poverty only by a few countries in Africa.

Governance, however, above and beyond the security and development challenge, will be the key to unlocking success in the future. Institutions have been built in Kabul. Ministries are functioning effectively at central level, at least in one out of three government institutions, I would say by a rough reckoning, but they are not always functioning at sub-national level, at provincial level, or at district level. This must be a major focus of international engagement if we are to succeed in this great project.

Establishing the rule of law is another major overriding priority for 2007. This goes to the heart of the reform now taking place in the ministry of interior, but it also has to engage much larger, more substantial forms of support for the attorney general's office and for the court system in Afghanistan. We hope Canada and other nations, with the sorts of commitments announced yesterday, will be part of shaping that agenda. That agenda obviously is deeply related to the challenge of counter-narcotics. The drug industry is the greatest illustration there still is today of the weakness and fragility of the Afghanistan state, of the legacy of failed statehood in Afghanistan, and of the incompleteness of our achievement to date.

Mr. Chair, I will leave my opening remarks there and hand it over to my colleague, but I look forward to your questions.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Alexander.

Mr. Appathurai, for roughly ten minutes, please.

9:20 a.m.

James Appathurai Spokesman, NATO International Staff, North Atlantic Treaty Organization

I'll try to stick to the time. At NATO, we're more disciplined than they are at the UN.

9:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:20 a.m.

James Appathurai Spokesman, NATO International Staff, North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Allow me also to thank you for having us this morning. This is a great pleasure for me. This is the first time that I have visited your committee.

As Christopher, my friend and colleague, stated, this is a very important issue for Canada. It is also very important for NATO: it is our main priority. As an aside, I would say that this is proof of how much NATO has changed.

My notes, about 50% of them, contain the same statistics that Christopher quoted on education, and infrastructure that has been built. Every week we receive two pages on development progress. In my office I have plans and maps. Five years ago I only had the Balkans. All of a sudden I have all of Southern Asia.

We have a very intimate relationship with the UN. That is security in the 21st century.

Let me make four brief points, please. I think it'll be more fun to talk together than have you listen to me.

There are three or four questions that we have to answer. First, do we still have a national interest in being there? Is the national interest that we had in signing up to this as strong as it was? I think it is absolutely clear that it is.

I did a little research five years ago, before the Taliban was removed from power. Afghanistan had become the sanctuary for extremist groups from at least 24 countries, all training in well-manned, well-funded terrorist camps. We can't ignore this. There was al-Qaeda, of course, with its 3,000 fighters from 13 Arab countries. There were extremist groups from Russia, Pakistan, China, Burma, Iran, Central Asia, and several countries of the Far East. All of them fought for the Taliban while carrying out their political agendas at home. Afghanistan was the Grand Central Station of terrorism, with extremists arriving every day and leaving better trained and more extreme.

These are the same people we're fighting today, and that is a point that we cannot forget. They would love to be back in power. This is 20:20 hindsight, and it has only been five years. That's a point that I continually make, certainly as a NATO spokesman. It's easy to forget, but we can't forget it. As NATO, we took on the mandate from the UN to help prevent that from happening, and that is what we are doing.

The second question is whether this is winnable, and whether we are winning. I think that is a critical question for the populations in the 37 troop-contributing nations. Certainly I can speak for them, because that's the question the public has asked. Can we do it? I think Chris has quite clearly indicated that on the indicators that matter, there is traction. People's lives are getting better. They have more money in their pockets. The level of access to health care is higher than in every country of Africa except South Africa, and that is saying a lot when you consider where Afghanistan started from five years ago. It's at 83%. My wife runs an NGO, and she tells me this is unheard of. The progress the UN has made in rolling this out is absolutely dramatic.

You've heard the other statistics. To put it in clear terms as to where we are now, our information is that there are 17,000 reconstruction and development projects under way as we speak, 1,000 of which are being carried out by NATO. Billions and billions of dollars are being spent.

Focusing on security, we have built the Afghan National Army up from zero five years ago to 30,000 soldiers now, deployed and fighting all over the country. This is absolutely relevant for us because the Afghan national security forces are our exit strategy. There will be a long fight in Afghanistan. The Taliban will not be crushed to nothing in the next three years. There will be an insurgency issue for a long time to come, for all the reasons we've mentioned, like the narcotics issue and the border issue with Pakistan. But the Afghans need to be able to fight their own fight. When they can, we can step back. Until they can, we can't. That's the reality.

As NATO countries, we have now contributed tens of thousands of small arms, millions of rounds of ammunition, 110 armoured personnel carriers, and a dozen helicopters. We've put small teams into the deployed Afghan battalions to help them do their jobs. The U.S. has pledged, as you know, $8.6 billion to help develop the Afghan national security forces. This is our exit strategy. We are aiming for 70,000 in the Afghan National Army.

The Afghan National Police are a big weak point. Part of the attraction, if you want to call it that, of the Taliban is that they walk into ungoverned areas where there is no structure, no law and order, and no effective police. As a result, people say they don't much like the Taliban, but they like structure better than they like anarchy, so they'll take the Taliban because it's all they have.

So we need to help establish a local government presence, and that means police. The army moves to fight. That's not your community policing. This is something, of course, that the EU and the UN are working on, not NATO, but it definitely affects us as NATO.

So the first conclusion is that our efforts to help the Afghans build a better country and better future are paying off, but it will certainly take a sustained and well-coordinated long-term effort. That's what Chris is doing.

There is a high level of expectation among Afghans about seeing the benefits in a concrete way. They've heard of all the pledges of billions of dollars, and they want to see the results. We have to do our best to do that.

The second question is whether we have enough forces and whether the other allies are pulling their weight. I know this is a very sensitive subject here in Canada. Our answer at NATO is, in general, yes and yes. Taking into account the political realities in all of the 37 countries, yes and yes.

Do we have everything we want? No. You'll never hear a satisfied NATO official. But we have dramatically increased the combat power available to the commander of ISAF this year.

Since the Riga summit three months ago, we have added over 7,000 troops to the overall ISAF mission. Virtually all of these are what we would call uncaveated--in other words, they don't have geographic restrictions on their use. Most of them are devoted to the south.

Of course the U.S. has made the most substantial contribution, with the 10th Mountain Division, followed by the 183rd Airborne

The U.K. just announced another 1,500 troops on top of the extra 500 that they had added.

Those are the big-ticket items. You also have Norwegian special forces, and special forces from other countries that have not made this public, so I'm not at liberty to do so. The Danes will add more. The Germans will likely approve the deployment of six Tornados, with the 500 troops that go with them. We also have more UAVs coming online, and we have more transport aircraft and so on from different countries. The Australians are going to double their contribution to 1,000, with another 250 special forces and transport.

I list all of this to tell you that the yardsticks have moved dramatically in the last three months. The Canadian government has been a vocal, intense advocate behind closed doors with the allies to do more, and they have moved the yardsticks. Canada has earned a lot of credit in NATO for what it's doing on the ground. We have a bigger voice than we had when I joined the alliance. People listen when Canada talks, because we have paid where it counts. I think we are using that credit very intelligently to get what we want focused towards.

In terms of the reconstruction and development funding, as Chris said, the government's announcement yesterday is exactly what we need. Do we need more? Yes. We need more helicopters and more fixed-wing transport aircraft. We will keep pushing. But you heard Minister O'Connor and General Hillier both say that they're broadly satisfied with what is now on the ground. They have been pushing hard, so if they say it, it means something.

When I talk about removing caveats, restrictions, we got a commitment at the Riga summit. All 26 allies—in fact all 37—committed to the principle that if another ally is in danger anywhere in the country, if Commander ISAF calls, they will go. That is a critical demonstration of solidarity. I can tell you that the French deployed Mirage aircraft in close air support for Canadian troops just a few weeks ago. They killed a lot of Taliban to save our soldiers' lives outside of their area. So they have proven that they are willing to do it; that's good.

I'll skip all the things that Chris already said. Let me highlight three areas where we are obviously going to focus our efforts as an international community, or where we need to.

One is on governance, and as Chris said, it's absolutely critical.

Second is Pakistan. Until we deal with the issue of support coming across the border, we will be not getting enough traction. I know that the Canadian government, the American government, and many others are working very closely with the Pakistanis. They have to be part of the solution.

I think I saw that Minister MacKay offered the Pakistanis Canada's expertise in how to defend a long and dangerous border.

9:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:25 a.m.

Spokesman, NATO International Staff, North Atlantic Treaty Organization

James Appathurai

Finally, there's narcotics, which is a cancer in this country. They are fuelling the Taliban, because the Taliban, like any mafia, is protecting the industry and taking their cut. This is of direct security interest to us, and therefore we have an interest in helping tackle it. But it is doable, and I want to give one statistic.

In the 1980s Pakistan was the world's biggest producer of heroin, and 70% came from that country. They were producing 900 tonnes of poppy per year. In 1997 Pakistan was producing 24 tonnes of poppy. In 1999 it was 2 tonnes. This is right next door; it's doable.

So you certainly shouldn't come to the conclusion that we throw up our hands and say, let's just let them grow it and we'll buy it, because you don't think the narcotics issue can be tackled. It can be done, as it has been done in Turkey and Thailand.

One other point is the comprehensive approach, as we call it in NATO--the three Ds. In other words, the narcotics issue shows that you can't just go after the crop and expect to be successful. You need a justice system, a police system, and alternative livelihoods.

Getting all the different pieces to work together, like NATO and the UN—this is all new for us—is like legislating love: it's a good idea, but you can't just write it down. It's a nice goal, but it's hard to do.

So this Canadian approach of balancing all the different parts, but also integrating them, is absolutely essential. We're learning as we go in NATO. I think the UN is a bit more ahead on this, but we're getting there.

The final point is on poll numbers. There is a perception in the press--and I'm the spokesman, so I know how the press can get things wrong--that the Afghans don't want us, that they like the Taliban, or that the government is losing support. There have been three major polls taken in Afghanistan in the last five years, only three: Altai Consulting, the Asia Foundation, and the BBC. If you average them out, about 75% of the population still welcomes foreign forces, strongly. And I think Chris can certainly support this. About 80% support their elected government, and that is a big deal. They accept a democratic system now, after only five years, as being the way to go. And 3% want the Taliban back--3%. That is, in other words, statistically insignificant. Nobody wants the Taliban back in Afghanistan. Most people think their lives are getting better.

These are encouraging numbers. We have traction, and we can make it work.

I have other points to make, including on what this means for NATO. But let's open the floor for questions, Mr. Chair.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We'll go into the first round. We're going to cut the first round to six-minute questions, and we will watch it very closely on the time clock.

We'll begin with Mr. Patry.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you very much. I will share my time—

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

That's question and answer, six minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Oh. I hope I can use six minutes. But they used 10 minutes. It will be the same--

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I should also say that they are meeting next with the defence committee at 10 o'clock. So we have to legislate this fairly closely.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you very much for coming this morning.

You talk about development. I want to talk about diplomacy. You give us your appreciation, but we receive a different view from some other countries, like Germany. Two weeks ago, Italian Prime Minister Prodi admitted he was not too keen about the situation in Afghanistan.

I would like to address sustainability, because a couple of weeks ago we met Professor Barnett Rubin in Washington, and he said the haven and support the Taliban receive in Pakistan derived in part from the hostility that has characterized relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan for as long as both have existed. That hostility, in turn, is partly driven by a century-long grievance in Afghanistan, the trade that Pakistan receives from India, and the precarious nature of Pakistan national unity, especially the dissidence of the Pashtun and Baluchistan, which Afghanistan has often supported. I want to talk about this. I want to talk about diplomacy.

If we go back to 1937, 60 years ago, before Pakistan even existed, there was a non-aggression treaty between Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey. I feel that right now the problem we're facing is a problem of non-aggression with all the neighbour countries, and the solution lies with the diplomacy, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Iran, China, Russia, and the EU, in a certain sense. I would like to know if the United Nations or NATO have ever.... I'm sure you think about it. Are you going to do anything to have a conference with all of these countries to try to find a vital and sustainable solution to the problems we're facing right now in Afghanistan?

That's my question. Maybe Mr. Ignatieff would like to ask his question right now, because we'll have no time if I let that guy....

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Ignatieff.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Ignatieff Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

I have a question for the NATO spokesman. There are conflicting judgments coming out of NATO as to the likelihood of a spring offensive. What is the current NATO thinking on that issue? What are NATO's plans to combat it?

For Mr. Alexander, what can the Karzai government do to increase its legitimacy and support in Kandahar province, since doing that is crucial to the success of the Canadian mission there?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Mr. Alexander.

9:35 a.m.

Deputy Special Representative of the Secretary General for Afghanistan, United Nations

Christopher Alexander

Thank you very much for both questions.

Pakistan, I think both of us noted, remains the partner of Afghanistan with whom we all need to work most intensively to solve some very key outstanding problems. Key to the solution is a recognition that the Taliban represents a threat to the established order, to the constitutional order in both countries. I think there is a dawning recognition in Pakistan itself that this is the case. We have seen attacks by suicide bombers almost as numerous inside Pakistan over the last two months as inside Afghanistan itself. That speaks to a threat that is cross-border in nature, but is also directed against, literally, the constitutional order in both countries.

Now, you cite Barnett Rubin, who has been a long-time associate of the UNAMA mission, was one of the architects of the Bonn Agreement, and remains an extremely candid and competent observer of Pakistan-Afghan relations. It is not correct, however, to say that the countries have been at daggers-drawn throughout their history. There remains the issue of the Durand Line, which is an issue for some constituencies within the Pashtun population of Afghanistan, but which, quite frankly, is not an axe that Afghans generally, let alone the Afghan government, have to grind with Pakistan today.

Afghans want security. They recognize that the Taliban was not dismantled; they were pushed out. They found safe haven, they found allies, partly in Pakistan, although the network supporting them is truly international in nature. There hasn't been enough progress to shut down those safe havens, those leadership structures, to the extent that will be required to bring stability to Afghanistan.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have one minute.

9:35 a.m.

Deputy Special Representative of the Secretary General for Afghanistan, United Nations

Christopher Alexander

Everyone is working to make this a reality. Quite frankly, in the first four or five years of transition, the importance of this issue was under-recognized by all the relevant players. I like to think--if you read UN reports--that the UN was among the earliest sounding the tocsin on this issue. But we've needed to go further, and we are only now generating the critical mass of dialogue with Pakistan that we need on these issues.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Appathurai, did you have something to add? We have about 40 seconds to answer both questions.

9:40 a.m.

Deputy Special Representative of the Secretary General for Afghanistan, United Nations

Christopher Alexander

On the question of governance in Kandahar, it's absolutely crucial to the success of the campaign today. I think a key observation is that those who have been involved in governance, to date, over the past four or five years, are not necessarily those who will serve the government best as its representatives in peacetime, as legitimate institutions start to roll out in Kandahar. There will need to be change. There has been some in both Kandahar and Helmand, but we need to see more. The figures associated with past strategies, some of which have failed, quite frankly, may need to move on before we have the right ingredients in place for success.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

We'll go to the second questioner, Madame Lalonde.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you.

Because we are pressed for time I'll get straight to my point.

A Senlis report—that you are probably very familiar with—that was published in February stated that there is an imbalance in the instruments being used by the counter-insurgency. In other words, too much focus has been placed on military security, even though it was necessary, and too little has been placed on humanitarian work, economic development, and everything else that falls under that category.

Three hundred and fifty dollars per inhabitant was spent in Bosnia; in Afghanistan, the amount is approximately $60. Are you doing enough? Everything can't depend only on Canada, on $200 million more. This seems to be a much bigger case.

9:40 a.m.

Deputy Special Representative of the Secretary General for Afghanistan, United Nations

Christopher Alexander

Despite the scope of the measures undertaken in Afghanistan to support development and reconstruction, those measures have been insufficient to date.