Evidence of meeting #51 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roy Culpeper  President, North-South Institute
John Dillon  Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
Mark Sedra  Research Associate, Bonn International Center for Conversion (BICC)
Scott Gilmore  Executive Director, Peace Dividend Trust
Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Angela Crandall

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, everyone. This is meeting number 51 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. It is Thursday, April 26, 2007.

In our first hour today we have a briefing session on the government's annual report on the Bretton Woods and Related Agreements Act, 2005. We have two witnesses. We apologize for working you in around a television set. We have a videoconference in the second hour.

Our witnesses this morning are Mr. Roy Culpeper, president of the North-South Institute, and Mr. John Dillon, program coordinator, Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiative, KAIROS. We look forward to your comments.

Yesterday in our committee meeting we had approximately three cellphones go off. I didn't complain too much because one of them was mine, but today I just remind you all to turn off your cellphones before we begin.

Welcome here. In this committee we usually enjoy what the folks who come have to say and then we go into a question period. We'll give you an opening statement, and then we'll go to the Liberals for the first round of seven minutes.

Welcome. Please go ahead, Mr. Culpeper.

9 a.m.

Roy Culpeper President, North-South Institute

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning.

I'd like to thank the committee for inviting the North-South Institute to offer its views on the issues raised by the government's annual report on the Bretton Woods organizations, the IMF and the World Bank.

Let me start by saying why multilateral organizations such as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank are so important.

We live in a world facing a number of complex problems, some of which present emergencies and others are crises in the making. These include the HIV/AIDS pandemic and other health emergencies afflicting the world's poorest people and countries; the spectre of devastation from climate change; local conflicts and the threat of regional wars, or worse; huge and escalating balances of payments, among the United States, Asian countries, and Europe, that threaten the financial stability of the international economy; and enormous and growing disparities between the rich and poor, which are a consequence of inequitable globalization.

It is not possible to resolve any of these problems through bilateral aid, diplomacy, or military intervention. They are too large and complex even for the United States, the world's richest and most powerful country. Problems of such global magnitude demand multilateral solutions. In other words, today's most pressing problems demand that multilateral organizations, such as the United Nations and the Bretton Woods institutions, play key roles in their resolution. They do so by mobilizing resources from those around the world endowed with the greatest ability to help and by allocating resources to those facing the most pressing needs.

There is, of course, a catch. In order to be effective and efficient, the multilateral organizations have to be constantly monitored, evaluated, and made accountable for their activities, policies, and results. For that to happen, member countries must exercise constant vigilance and due diligence through their representatives at the organizations and through the officials who support them in capitals.

But accountability of multilateral organizations only starts with our officials, for example, with the Department of Finance's report on the Bretton Woods organizations. It certainly does not end there. Indeed it is essential that these reports be used as a platform for wider discussions, not only on the effectiveness of the institutions but on their very purpose and legitimacy.

Parliamentarians and civil society in member countries must be engaged in these discussions to ask not just whether the multilaterals are doing things right, but more fundamentally, whether they are doing the right thing. Typically, officials do not ask such questions.

Let me give you two examples. The report points to the fact that many fewer countries are now borrowing from the International Monetary Fund, undermining the financial viability of that organization. Most of the fund's remaining borrowers are the poorest countries, which need long-term development assistance, not the kind of short-term, balance-of-payment support for which the IMF was created. Yet the IMF does not consider itself to be a development agency. This has led to significant tensions between the World Bank and the IMF and coordination problems between those institutions—problems that we do not hear very much about in the report.

The reports alludes to the search by officials for financial solutions to the IMF's deficits, but the officials are not posing the more fundamental questions: Should the IMF continue to exist at all? If so, should its mission and mandate be drastically altered?

My second example relates to the turmoil currently engulfing Paul Wolfowitz's presidency at the World Bank. The issue I want to raise is that of the selection process for the World Bank president and for his counterpart in the IMF, the managing director.

Although the report states that Canada favours an open, transparent, and merit-based selection process, when push comes to shove, traditions die hard. In this case, traditionally the United States hand-picks the World Bank president and other countries rubber stamp the American candidate. Paul Wolfowitz, nominated two years ago by President George W. Bush, was a very controversial choice and hardly the best man for the job.

If Mr. Wolfowitz steps down, as many believe he should—and I agree with their assessment—the next president must be chosen through an open, transparent, and merit-based process. But it will take a considerable amount of pressure to make this happen, and that pressure must come from parliamentarians and civil society in member countries. Officials in Washington, Ottawa, and other capitals are unlikely to make this change happen without such external pressure.

Finally, I'd like to add that Canada has an opportunity to make a different sort of contribution at the IMF and World Bank from what it is able to do in UN agencies and other multilateral organizations. The boards at the IMF and World Bank comprise 24 executive directors, most of whom represent a grouping or a constituency of a number of countries. Canada's executive director represents Ireland and most of the Commonwealth Caribbean states as well as Canada itself. Similarly, our finance minister represents his counterparts among our Irish and Caribbean constituency members when he speaks at the policy-making committees at the spring and fall meetings of the fund and bank.

In other words, Canada has a north-south constituency consisting of both developed and developing countries. This enables Canada, if it so chooses, to play a more inclusive role by articulating and endorsing the positions of our developing country constituents. Other chairs at these organizations typically cannot do this. Nor can Canada speak for other countries at the United Nations, where it represents only itself.

Let me conclude. We welcome this opportunity to engage in a discussion on the international financial institutions, but the issues are many and complex. To do them justice, the standing committee should ensure more regular opportunities to have such discussions and provide sufficient time to allow greater depth in the discussion. Perhaps a standing subcommittee on international financial institutions should be re-established, or even more broadly, a committee that oversees all multilateral institutions dealing with economic and social cooperation. Multilateral institutions, in my view, are too important to be left wholly in the custody of our officials, as competent and conscientious as they may be. If these organizations are to do the right thing, as well as do things right, parliamentarians and civil society need to play a more active role in shaping their policies, activities, and impacts.

Thank you.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Culpeper.

We'll go to Mr. Dillon.

9:10 a.m.

John Dillon Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To begin, I want to commend the Department of Finance for its very informative report on the operations under the Bretton Woods Act and also the staff of the Halifax Initiative for the report card that gives credit to the Department of Finance for much improved work.

In the time available, I propose to comment on three of Canada's objectives as chronicled in that report.

The first point deals with the contradiction between Canada's goal of improving aid effectiveness and the policy advice that is routinely dispensed by the IMF. Last June I was reading an article by an African colleague concerning IMF policies. In one sentence left off the report it reads:

In the case of Zambia, the government was not allowed to employ more health care workers by IMF despite the willingness of the Canadian government to foot the wage bill for the next five years.

I was astonished. Could this be true? Was the IMF actually denying the ability of Canada to pay for health care workers in a country with an HIV prevalence of 17% of the adult population?

I undertook to inquire into this and contacted a number of colleagues in Zambia. What I discovered was disconcerting. Not only was our own CIDA having difficulty dispensing aid, but so was the United Kingdom's Department for International Development, the United Nations Children's Fund, and the World Health Organization. This was part of a broader problem.

I asked myself if Zambia is perhaps an exceptional case. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The IMF itself commissioned a study by its own independent evaluation office to examine allegations that IMF programs were blocking the availability of aid in Africa. The report examined the activities of the IMF in 29 African countries over the years 1999 to 2005. The results of this study I think are very shocking. They show that the IMF has allowed only 28% of anticipated aid increases to be spent, while the other 72% is held back as public savings. In other words, only about $3 out of every $10 in annual aid increases was allowed to be spent. The other $7 was set aside as international reserves or domestic savings.

The prime reason why the IMF does not allow more public spending, even when it could be funded by international donors, is its overzealous commitment to combatting inflation. Countries with inflation below 5% were allowed to spend $8 out of every $10 in aid. Countries with inflation above 5% were restricted to spending just $1.50 out of every $10 in promised aid. Most economists will tell us that moderate inflation, that is inflation in the range of 10% to 20%, is not harmful to economic development. However, IMF programs that are overly restrictive of government spending in the name of fighting inflation are harmful to development. I think a weakness of Canada's report on the Bretton Woods institutions is that it does not deal with this issue, and we do not know what position Canada is taking internally in debates within the Bretton Woods institutions on this issue.

The second area I would like to comment on is the priority that Canada states for promoting sustainable development. This priority is contradicted by World Bank support for fossil fuel extraction in developing countries, which is leading to increased greenhouse gas emissions because of climate change. Canada, along with other G-8 countries, has called upon the World Bank to develop an investment framework for clean energy development. The good news is that the World Bank is making progress in this regard. However, they are starting from a very difficult position. Over the years 1992 to 2004, the World Bank dispensed some $28 billion in financing for fossil-fuel-related projects. This was 17 times as much as the financing for energy efficiency and renewable energy projects.

The good news is this has begun to change. In fiscal year 2005, the World Bank actually dispensed more money for energy efficiency and renewable energy than it did for fossil fuels. However, in fiscal year 2006, we again saw retrogression; the spending for fossil fuels went up by 93%, while for renewable energy and energy efficiency it went up by only 46%. So we still have a long way to go.

Canada, I would hope, would identify itself with the advice given by the World Bank's own extractive industry review, which called for phasing out spending for fossil fuel extraction and devoting the World Bank's resources to renewable energy, to conservation, and to clean energy technologies.

The third and final area I wish to comment on is the Canadian priority around reforming the IMF to strengthen the international financial system. Roy has already touched on this.

What I want to do is put this in a somewhat broader context. Precisely because of the way the IMF conditionality is restrictive of the ability of sovereign nations to make their own decisions, we're seeing a trend in Asia, in Africa, and in Latin America toward the development of new institutions that would not be under the Bretton Woods umbrella. For example, in Asia they're talking about an Asian monetary fund that would be controlled by Asian countries. In Africa they're talking about an African currency and an African central bank. In Latin America, five countries have already moved to develop a bank of the south, which will take their own currency reserves and devote them to their own development priorities.

The Governor of the Bank of Canada, Mr. Dodge, has observed that the IMF is viewed with so much suspicion that it's no longer the best organization to foster a stable monetary environment. That's why we're seeing developing countries taking these initiatives.

Far from being alarmed about this, Canada should welcome these southern initiatives and encourage sovereign countries to take control of their own finances and to build institutions that serve their own needs.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Dillon and Mr. Culpeper.

Certainly this committee in the past has had the opportunity on occasion to visit with representatives from the IMF and from the World Bank while we've been in Washington. We've even met with the head of the World Bank. It's good to have you come to give us a little bit of a review of some of the work of the Bretton Woods institutions.

We'll go to Mr. Eyking for the first round.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the guests for coming here today. I have two questions. My first one is probably to you, Mr. Culpeper.

You mentioned needing a new boss at the World Bank, and that somehow we have to get involved and have a new process. Do you have a template for that process and how we can be involved with it? That would be my first question.

9:15 a.m.

President, North-South Institute

Roy Culpeper

Actually, this has been the subject of some internal discussion going back about five or six years, when there was a succession issue at the International Monetary Fund. The executive directors of the World Bank and the monetary fund came up with a template, if you will, a succession process. I can't give you the details, but it was basically geared towards a search to identify some of the best candidates for the position and then a selection process to choose the best one for the job. This doesn't actually have to be invented; it's already been given considerable thought.

The problem is what happened to that internal dialogue. It was basically suppressed by the Americans and by the Europeans, because they didn't want to upset the apple cart. The Europeans had this traditional right to appoint the managing director of the IMF, and in return the Americans would continue to select the president of the World Bank, so that's where it's remained stuck.

What I'm trying to say, in answer to your question, is that there already is a template out there, and it's one that has been discussed by the people inside the bank, the executive directors.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

If Canada is left out of that process a bit, because the Europeans and the Americans seem to dominate it, couldn't we partner up with Singapore, Japan, and other countries so that we could have a balance in the decision-making process?

9:20 a.m.

President, North-South Institute

Roy Culpeper

We were part of the discussions I'm referring to by virtue of the fact that we have an executive director at both institutions.

And you're right. I think there are a number of other players around the table—the Japanese, for example—who have always resented the fact that they have been, in effect, removed from consideration for selection, or that one of their nationals has been. But that also goes for virtually all other member countries.

I think it's a particularly remarkable, perhaps even unacceptable, fact that a developing country candidate never seems to be considered for the presidency of the World Bank—this is the world's largest development agency—and you have to ask why. So there are a number of developing countries that would also endorse moving in this direction.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you.

My second question would be to Mr. Dillon.

I don't know, Mr. Dillon, if you're familiar with the Senate report out right now dealing with CIDA and the results we're not having in sub-Saharan Africa. It's quite a report, and there are some bold ideas in there of how we should change the way Canada is doing aid.

Many other countries in the world have already re-evaluated their aid agencies and changed them around quite a bit, so that report has quite a bit in it.

My first question to you is whether CIDA needs a bit of an overhaul, and what you think of that report.

My second question is about the multilaterals, and you mentioned them. If we're not getting what we need or want, or we're not getting our voice heard in these multilaterals, should Parliament be evaluating them more and getting a report back to us so we can have some influence in the decision-making on how we're going to deal with them?

9:20 a.m.

Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives

John Dillon

Thank you.

The Senate report has been widely discussed within the international development community. We feel largely that yes, there are problems at CIDA, but we wouldn't go so far as to identify with the recommendation in the Senate report that CIDA's responsibilities be turned over to the Department of Foreign Affairs.

We think CIDA needs to take a more proactive stance in a lot of its work. It needs to raise its profile.

And certainly, in terms of your second question, parliamentary evaluation of multilateral institutions would be very welcome. I think if you could call more witnesses with knowledge on more areas of these large and complex organizations, it would be very welcomed by the NGO community.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Is there any more time?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Yes, you've got a minute and a half.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

We have had witnesses here before, and sometimes they have said that when we give our money to these multilaterals, there is no accountability. It just kind of goes into a black hole. Sometimes it does a good job, but we don't know because the Auditor General can't get a grip on it. So it's kind of left out there, and we're assuming it's being done properly.

We also hear it from Canadians, regular citizens in our country, who don't realize where their money is going and how much effect it's having out there. So there is quite a disconnect between our knowing where our money is going and the average Canadian knowing what we're doing out there.

How can we better connect that?

9:20 a.m.

Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives

John Dillon

One of the keys is to call for more transparency in the multilateral institutions. For example, minutes of the board meetings of the World Bank are not published. We don't know what Canada's voting record on key issues is.

We think that if there could be more transparency about the decision-making process inside these institutions, parliamentarians and the public could engage in a more informed debate.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you very much.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Eyking.

We'll go to Madame Lalonde.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you to both of you.

I think we are to be commended for holding this committee meeting today and I'd like to thank those people from the Halifax group as well as Mr. Culpeper for having pushed for this.

Indeed, I'm very glad that we have this opportunity because oftentimes, for many reasons, there is doubt about the real role played by the International Monetary Fund in the world. Given the ambitions it had at its inception and in light of what it has become today, including from a strictly economic and financial point of view, one may be justified in questioning its real role and indeed its very existence. I'd like to hear your opinion on this since you touched upon it in your opening remarks.

It might be a good idea to think about a standing subcommittee on multilateral institutions, given that they are so enormous and because it is really hard to know exactly what they do—it may sound a little strange to say that—in addition to simply relying on their reports to get an understanding of their role. I got to know the World Bank better through a friend who worked there. I also learned a lot through documents I read about the effectiveness or lack thereof of the World Bank.

I'd like to hear your ideas on the best ways of proceeding. Apart from this committee, there is also what you recommended. Is it possible to effect change without parliamentarians taking action throughout the world?

I have been privy to goings-on at the Council of Europe: OECD reports, visits by parliamentarians who took part in working groups at the OECD, and the resulting changes. The OECD has changed a lot, although it is a long way from—It is not exactly the same thing, but I think you can still draw comparisons.

Is there some other type of relationship with parliamentarians which would improve the way these multilateral associations work or indeed, at another level, the objectives of these associations.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Madam Lalonde.

Mr. Culpeper.

9:25 a.m.

President, North-South Institute

Roy Culpeper

Thank you, Ms. Lalonde.

To begin with, I'd like to reiterate what I said. We need multilateral institutions, but we also need to have mechanisms to coordinate the action they take and the policies they implement, and to have a way of regulating these institutions. You suggested a dialogue between parliamentarians and members of these various institutions. That was a very good idea.

I've often noticed that African parliamentarians did not have an opportunity to debate the HIPC and the PRSP which their governments had approved. There is a dialogue between Africa's Finance ministers, the IMF, and the World Bank in Washington, but there's no debate at the parliamentary level. Here, in Ottawa, the Parliamentary Centre has a network of African parliamentarians asking for this very opportunity.

I would suggest that there is a need for dialogue between Canadians, Europeans and even Americans. You should be having these kinds of discussions with your colleagues in Africa as well as those in developing countries. It is really important.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Culpeper or Mr. Dillon, do you want to respond to the question?

9:30 a.m.

Program Coordinator, Global Economic Justice, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives

John Dillon

Yes, I do.

Thank you, Madame Lalonde.

I have in front of me a petition with a collection of over 1,000 signatures from parliamentarians around the world demanding more accountability from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. These are particularly parliamentarians in the south who want to be involved in making national decisions on what their priorities should be.

To take the example I gave of Zambia, all of the interaction took place between the Zambian ministry of finance and the representatives from the International Monetary Fund. Elected parliamentarians were not involved in that debate.

I'm just going to read a key quote from the petition:

As a result, we are calling on the Bretton Woods institutions and their primary shareholders to ensure that the democratically elected representatives of countries receiving loans and financial assistance ultimately be the real brokers of their countries' economic policies.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Do I have any time left?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I'll give you a little more time.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you.

That's interesting. Framed in that way, I don't think that there is much chance of that succeeding unless there was a fundamental transformation. However, if parliamentarians do meet, reach a consensus and push this line in their respective home countries, we could certainly sign on that.

If we do want to effect change, even in relation to what I referred to, it won't be easy, nor will it be quick. And yet, I think that it is absolutely crucial because otherwise we'll find ourselves in a situation where these two big institutions may end up contradicting each other and challenging the policies adopted by their countries, policies for which we, and other parliamentarians involved with CIDA, have passed resolutions.

Now, all of this may mean that the funds, instead of being used to fight poverty and promote development, may not be targeted enough, and as such, have their intended effect negated.

Thank you very much for having reminded us of that.