Evidence of meeting #13 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Randolph Mank  Director General, Asia South and Pacific Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Jim Nickel  Director, South Asia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

The Pakistan election. I don't think I was talking about Canada here, was I? This motion is about....That's why it shows that you guys are fast asleep. I'm talking about Pakistan.

It is important for us. I would like to say that when you do come back, we would like an analysis on the whole situation in Pakistan following the elections, and if that would create the stability that would allow us to bring work and stability to the northwest regions, considering the fact that the spillover is into Afghanistan as well.

As you know, the government has put forward a motion to extend our mission until 2011. It is critically important that part of the success in Afghanistan is also the success in Pakistan.

Since the Bloc has already stated that they want to pull out of Afghanistan, they have no interest in Pakistan, which is fine with us.

My colleague has one more question.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Mr. Mank, Mr. Nickel, or whoever would like to answer, can you confirm that there are reserved seats for women in Pakistan? In the federal election, can women have reserved seats or run independently? Also, are there seats for minorities?

February 12th, 2008 / 4:45 p.m.

Director General, Asia South and Pacific Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Randolph Mank

I believe that's correct, yes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Do you think we should support the purpose or the cause of the election going forward, and after the elections we should see how democracy is evolving there and perhaps come back for more opinions from experts to tell us what we should or should not be doing, and how we should engage after the elections?

It's very crucial to understand how the prime minister of the day, the president, who will now be sandwiched between the chief of staff of the army--they obviously know the importance of Afghanistan...and how the operation is happening. We need to know that. When do you think we would be in a position to see how it's evolving?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Mank, I have one suggestion.

In your opening statement you spoke about the Commonwealth assessment following the elections there in February--this week, I believe--but then you also stated that Canada wasn't involved in that. Am I correct on that? Are we part of that Commonwealth evaluation?

4:45 p.m.

Director General, Asia South and Pacific Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Randolph Mank

We are, of course, part of the Commonwealth, but we're not on the evaluation mission, which is sent by the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group. We were part of that action group for two consecutive terms. Now our membership term has ended and we're not part of that mission. Of course, as an important Commonwealth member, we're watching that very closely to see what their report is going to be.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Did you have other comments for Mr. Khan?

4:45 p.m.

Director General, Asia South and Pacific Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Randolph Mank

I'll leave it to the committee. I don't understand the procedural issues as deeply as you do. Chair, you, in your wisdom, will figure that out with your colleagues, but I can assure you we will, at the department, be watching this extremely closely.

I can also add that my colleague Mr. Nickel and I are involved in looking after the relations with many countries, but we spend probably more time on Pakistan than on any other single country, and have done so for the past year and a half. It's something the Canadian government has been taking very seriously.

There are some newcomers to the idea that Pakistan is an important place to watch, but we're not really newcomers in that regard. We've been paying a lot of attention to it for a long time and looking for ways to strengthen our influence in that country in order to achieve the things we want.

Whatever the committee decides, we're at your disposal. You can rest assured that we'll be watching the situation very closely in Pakistan.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

We've already taken you past the hour, but Mr. Wilfert has asked for a few minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Chairman, although the committee is going to be seized with other issues, given Mr. Khan's proposal and in the spirit of what Mr. Khan has suggested, couldn't we maybe host an all-party information evening after the break with regard to the elections, where we could put forth to all members of Parliament who might be interested—and I'd be more than happy to work with Mr. Khan and others on this—an opportunity to do an evaluation and to listen to the experts with regard to the post-election situation in Pakistan?

Certainly, as the vice-chair of the Canada-Pakistan Parliamentary Group, I'm sure we could use the latter as a vehicle, if you wish. But again, I think an all-party hosting of this event might be very helpful, and we could certainly send out an invitation to Mr. Mank, Mr. Nickel, and others, as it could be very useful.

I just don't think the committee's time, given everything else.... I'm sure we could find an appropriate evening. I've already talked to Mr. Khan, and he certainly seemed disposed to that.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Well, that's wonderful, except it really doesn't deal with committee business. We can arrange those things informally.

Thank you, Mr. Wilfert.

We want to thank the department again for coming here today. Certainly we'll be watching—as you will—the elections in Pakistan next week. We appreciate your being here and giving us a comprehensive update as to what's happening there.

We're going to suspend for two minutes and then we'll come back to committee business.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

In our second hour today we are going to discuss committee business, so we'll call the meeting back to order.

When we left the committee business in the last meeting, Mr. Obhrai had moved that pursuant to Standing Order 108.(2), the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development undertake a study investigating the effectiveness and quality of Canada's food aid policy and whether current methods of delivery meet the objectives established under the Food Aid Convention.

Debate arose from that motion and Madame Barbot moved an amendment that the motion be amended by adding after the words “food aid policy” the following: “and whether the local productive capacity of developing countries is sufficient to feed their populations and export agricultural products”. As I've stated, as we left and adjourned for the day, Mr. Obhrai was speaking to that amendment to the motion. So we will go back to Mr. Obhrai's debate.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I have a point of order, just to clarify.

Is the amendment still alive and we're debating that?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Yes.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Speaking on the amendment, as I was stating before we broke, the purpose of my original motion was to talk about food delivery in Canada and its effectiveness in Canada. The proposed amendment talks about something else outside, by itself. We are now expanding the scope by bringing outside countries and developing countries into it. It takes away from the whole study on what Canada was going to do. I don't have it, in principle...another motion put forward by the Bloc somewhere down the line to study what that would achieve, which would be a different study.

From my perspective, to combine it within the context of what we would call a Canadian study would muddy the waters. I have no idea about the direction and which witnesses we would call. Would it require us to make an overseas trip to see whether the productive capacity of developing countries is there? We would have to see the structure and what is happening there. So what you have here are two totally different aspects of the study, hence our reluctance to agree to this amendment.

Based on my past experience with these things, I can talk about the developing capacities of these countries. Before I talk about that, I want to add a comment on what my colleague from the Liberal Party was saying about Pakistan. The productive capacity of developing countries would apply to Pakistan as well as Afghanistan. Due to the war conditions and the insecurity that exists there, the local productive capacity of those countries has suffered seriously.

Let's talk for a minute about the poppy-growing issue in Afghanistan. The farming capacity of Afghanistan--agriculture--through all these years of war has collapsed. It has made room for this development of poppies, which one can very clearly say has damaged the agricultural capacity of Afghanistan. In that context, I was a little surprised that the Bloc refused to accept an amendment to discuss the security situation in Pakistan. That security situation in Pakistan also has a developing impact, a farming impact on that country, which is part of this thing here.

Frankly, because it came as a proposal from the Conservative Party, those in the Bloc don't want to support it, which goes to show the nature of partisan politics that exists in this committee. Even if you propose a common-sense motion, you are going to get opposition just for the sake of it. There was no reason.

After opposing it, they didn't realize they had made a blunder of it. Henceforth, the Liberals came along proposing to have an all-party committee meeting. My friend on the other side is the vice-chair of the Canada-Pakistani friendship group. He could have easily gone to his own group over there and asked the department to come to do something, but we were doing this portion here in the independent committee of the House of Commons, where we can decide what to do.

I'm still puzzled as to why the Bloc said no to a very good, common-sense.... We called the people from the department. It's all about local capacity.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Obhrai, can I encourage you to keep your discussion to the point of the amendment, not to another motion?

5 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

It is about the productive capacity of developing nations. Isn't Pakistan a developing nation? Doesn't an election in Pakistan have a direct impact on the developing capacity of a developing country? Yes, it does.

You see, now they want to study this. But when you bring forward a motion--no, not even a motion, but somebody's statement that says let's look at the election.... Because with that election, there will be stability. If there's stability, the agricultural capacity of Pakistan will increase. That is exactly in line, Mr. Chair, with this proposed motion we have put forward. Yet I am quite surprised that the Bloc said no. Again, I will go back and ask why they are opposed to this thing.

Now let me talk about capacity. I can now say why I think this whole thing gets muddled. I'll tell you why it gets muddled. When you talk about the development of Pakistan--

5 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Point of order. Mr. Chair, I think Mr. Obhrai is filibustering. If he can get to the point, then others will have a chance to answer the questions he is posing, which we are all waiting to do, for his edification.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I'm not certain if it's, as you suggest, a filibuster. An amendment was made to a motion that had been tabled. I know that even as Mr. Obhrai continues to speak on this....

The amendment does take it away somewhat from the original. I'm being convinced, in a way, that it does take it away from the original motion. Now I've let the amendment stand. I know that Mr. Obhrai has been very disappointed that when he brings these motions, they just seem to automatically get amended. But one thing I can't do is cut off debate on a motion, as long as he stays on the topic the motion brings out.

So I'll take your point of order, but it's not really a point of order.

Mr. Obhrai, continue.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Thank you.

I would suggest that you write down the questions I'm raising. All of us have the opportunity during this debate to address this issue. When I'm finished going through 190 countries and the development of their agricultural capacity....

5 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Point of order. I just want to ask a question of my colleague.

If you want to speak until 5:30, we might as well quit right now. That's it. We're going to save half an hour, every one of us.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Patry.

Continue, Mr. Obhrai.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

I just want you to listen to me. It is my democratic right. So just listen. You must listen. I want this to go in the record.

I'm not filibustering for the sake of filibustering. I am just saying to you that I feel that this amendment, by itself, is going to override the study that I intended to study, which was on the Canadian food aid delivery program. This one that has been proposed moves it to the other side, which is why you're finding reluctance.

I have stated right from the beginning that you can put your own motion forward on this idea and leave us to do the Canadian study. Then you want to go to the development study. At that given time, I will be more than happy to make the same speech I'm going to make right now.

But that's what the Bloc did. Mr. Chair, these guys don't understand. What I'm saying is being recorded. If I'm in Hansard, they're supposed to listen. If they don't listen, they'll ask foolish questions, like they did with that question on where the elections were. So go have some coffee and listen.

I still don't understand your reluctance. I hope Mr. Dewar will understand. Why can't you do a Canadian study?

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

I can handle the member opposite not understanding, but I am ready to explain things to him. I brought the convention from which the amendment came, and I would be very happy to explain so that we can move on, Mr. Chair. But, in all sincerity, bringing the motion back to Afghanistan is not going to change anything.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madame Barbot.

I think Mr. Obhrai understands very clearly how this works. He's been here for eleven years.

Continue, Mr. Obhrai.