Foreign Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay, thank you both.

We're going to go to Ms. Chow.

Welcome to our committee. It's good to have you here. You have seven minutes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you.

Talking about the future, World Bank preliminary forecasts for between now and 2005 said that up to 2.8 million additional children will die because of the economic downturn, which was not caused by them but probably because of deregulation and greed. This 2.8 million is actually larger than the population of Manitoba and slightly smaller than Toronto. But you're looking at 46 million more people living in poverty as they make less than $1.25 a day. Many of them live in Africa, and many of the mothers are losing their jobs. Last I saw, the banks got $8.4 trillion in bailouts, as of January of this year.

What do you think is the Canadian aid level to Africa? That's my first question. I have two more. It's a quick question, the precise dollar amount.

The second question is about how African minerals being sold here in the west sometimes end up fuelling ongoing conflicts. Take Congo as an example. Some material from our cellphones, coltan, has a connection there. There's a bill being considered in the U.S. Congress to deal with the situation. The bill requires companies using these minerals to keep track of where the minerals are coming from and to ensure that they are not using minerals that fund conflicts. What do you think of such a bill?

Third, I see Barrick Gold in your booklet here. Norway's pension funds do not invest in Barrick Gold because of their open pit mine. Should the Canada Pension Plan invest in these companies, for example, because of some of the practices in Africa?

Those are my three questions.

[Lucien Bradet]

I don't want to talk about Barrick, because I'm not that company. They are a member of the organization, and I think that we have to work with them, because they are doing good things around the world.

I remember when I was young in Jonquière, Saguenay, my father used to say that the Americans were stealing our resources. That was what we were saying in Quebec. Well, do you think they still steal our resources? They don't, because we've learned how to do things. That's what the African countries are doing. They've been doing this in Tanzania, Rwanda, and DRC. They are renegotiating deals to make sure that they get their share. Were they abused? I'm sure they were abused. I'm not going to try to say that there was no abuse. But the lessons are learned very fast.

I can tell you that the members we have, including Barrick, are doing great stuff for the development of the economy. For example, in one project in Tanzania, they have a 200-kilometre water pipeline and at 10 different places they put in a pump system for the people of the village, who had no water before. It has nothing to do with the mine, but they did that.

So I think we can find horror stories. I guarantee that, Madam. But as you can see from this page here, we just published a book of 50 things that Canadian companies have done that any Canadian would think are great things that we should do.

Were they abused? Yes. Are there good things happening? Yes.

On the other hand, how much money should we spend in Africa? I think 0.7% is where we should reach. Maybe we cannot do it for the whole world, but I think that we should do it at least for Africa, because Africa is the last place where there are so many poor people, so many kids in danger, and so many women who are not well treated. That's where the jobs will be created. I think that the investment that Canada is making, $21 billion now, creates those jobs. So we need to train people, because they are our eyes and our friends.

I'll give you a small example. I was with the Chamber of Commerce of Senegal a month ago. In that room there was the Senegalese Chamber of Commerce and there was a Canadian. Who do you think was in the corner? It was our French representative, on loan, free of charge, to the chamber. Do you think that what we were trying to do with the chamber didn't go to Paris the day after? The same day it went to Paris. So let's not be boy scouts here. We have to work in a continent where competition is important and where Canadians are well received. They want us there. We have the technology, we have the people.

We're not going to export, Madam, locomotives and cement. Know-how is what we're going to export. That's what they like from the Quebec people, from the Montreal people, and so forth.

So as for the question of whether we do enough aid, my answer is no, and we should try to reach more in Africa than we do in other places.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

The one question that you haven't touched on is about African minerals being sold here that end up creating even more conflict, as in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Should Canada have a bill to keep track of where the minerals come from and make sure this money is not ending up funding conflicts by allowing people to buy arms?

[Lucien Bradet]

I think the actual government did a good job when it came out with the labelling. That's an example.

Deepak does not hear me.

Mr. Ohbrai, I'm saying something good about you, and you're not listening.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Deepak Ohbrai]

Can you repeat it? Say it twice.

[Lucien Bradet]

She was talking about the origin of the metals, and I was saying the present government did something good about it—the labelling of products to say where they are made, so citizens know where it is.

I believe in fair trade. I believe in fair practices, and I think people should know more. At the same time, organizations like PAAC, Partnership Africa Against Corruption, are doing a great job on the diamond business and other things.

The only government in the world that works with the mining ministries of Africa is Natural Resources Canada. It is helping them to have good rules. We are the only one accepted in that circle.

So we cannot change everything, but I think we're doing good things. It's not perfect, and we should do more, but I think we're going in the right direction.

We still are a good influence.

We still are a good influence.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Can I just ask one other question? In Congo, for example, when you're looking at war, there's usually violence against women; they're used as weapons of war. There are projects there, such a project against sexual violence, partly funded by Canada. Are these some of the good things or projects that you're talking about, that we need to do more of to protect women?

[Lucien Bradet]

I'll give you two examples.

Madam Ramazani was here from Congo, and nous parlons la semaine passée about violence against women. I've been in RDC, and I see how tough it is. I think there are companies who are working in the same field and are trying to help and are making initiatives—and Canada should do more.

But I'll give you an example in Congo, which is a great example. There's a company in Montreal dealing with biopharmaceuticals. That company has developed a program to help Congolese learn how to plant and explore medicinal herbs. This company, with the Jesuits of Congo, developed a new industry that is super high value.

[A voice]

So that's organic medicine?

[Lucien Bradet]

That's right.

These are the things that will help people. Who is the biggest backer of that? It's Lundin Mining of Vancouver.

So the ramifications of what we do are everywhere. But without CIDA in many of those projects, they will not see the light of the day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right, thank you very much. We're out of time.

I do want to thank you for coming to the committee today. I would also, on an aside, encourage you to look at Bill C-300, which our committee is also looking at.

[Lucien Bradet]

I've heard about that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Perhaps you need to—

[Lucien Bradet]

Is that a question? Can I answer it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

No, unfortunately, we're all out of time.

But I noted that the companies who are part of your council have made appeals to all of us in regard to that bill, so I think we know where you'd stand.

[Lucien Bradet]

Mr. Chairman, if we go in that direction, it will be the fourth place where we are going to hurt Africa, because we are going to be stopping a lot of good investment with good intentions and good deeds.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Oh, you can come back any time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We want to thank all committee members for letting us meet a little later on today because of the votes and everything else.

We're adjourned.