Evidence of meeting #31 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Carmen DePape
Alan H. Kessel  Legal Advisor and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
David Balfour  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Scott Parsons  Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual
Bob Applebaum  Former Director General, Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual
Tom Hedderson  Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I'll invite the departments to make their way forward.

This morning we have two departments appearing before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. We welcome those from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans: Mr. David, the acting assistant deputy minister, fisheries and aquaculture management, and Mr. Guy Beaupré, the acting associate assistant deputy minister, fisheries and aquaculture management.

We've always had different representation from the Foreign Affairs and International Trade Department. This morning we have Mr. Alan Kessel, the deputy legal adviser and director general, bureau of legal affairs; and Caterina Ventura, deputy director, oceans law section.

Are we correct?

9:15 a.m.

Alan H. Kessel Legal Advisor and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Well, I'm actually the legal adviser and the ADM legal at Foreign Affairs. What you described was my former job.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right, then, congratulations on your promotion—

9:15 a.m.

Legal Advisor and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Alan H. Kessel

Three years ago.

9:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We feel even doubly honoured that you've been promoted to this position.

9:15 a.m.

Legal Advisor and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Alan H. Kessel

I've enjoyed this for four years, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Maybe because of my faux pas there, I will invite you, from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, to open, if that's all right. Or did you have it...?

9:15 a.m.

Legal Advisor and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Alan H. Kessel

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that my colleague from Fisheries and Oceans would like to open, and we've agreed on this.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right, thank you.

You have ten minutes for your opening remarks. Then we'll go into our first round and second round of questioning.

9:15 a.m.

David Balfour Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's a pleasure for us to be here with you this morning. We welcome the opportunity to outline the amendments to the 1978 Convention on Future Multilateral Cooperation in the North Atlantic Fisheries, also known as the NAFO convention.

The amendments to the NAFO convention are important for Canada and for Canada's fishing industry. They will help to ensure the conservation and sustainable management of fish stocks and ecosystems in the North Atlantic, thereby contributing to the economic development and prosperity of coastal communities in Atlantic Canada. Canada's overriding objective has been to curb overfishing and to ensure the sustainability of the fish stocks and the long-term health of the ecosystems in which they live. Given that most of NAFO-managed fish stocks are straddling—they occur both within Canada's exclusive economic zone on the Atlantic side and also beyond the 200-mile limit on the high seas, in the NAFO regulatory area—these concerns also reflect global interest.

Of particular significance for Atlantic provinces, in particular the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, is Canada's membership and leadership in the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization. After 30-some years, NAFO members agreed that it was time to modernize the convention in order to bring it in line with the provisions of the 1995 United Nations Fish Stocks Agreement. NAFO members agreed that we had to be forward-looking and to give ourselves the modern decision-making tools required to deal with the modern problems we face.

The amendments to the convention were only one of a number of reforms that NAFO engaged in. First came the enforcement reform in 2006. Changes to NAFO conservation enforcement measures enacted in 2007 have led to encouraging success in enforcing the rules on the high seas in the NAFO regulatory area. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans, acting on behalf of NAFO, has increased enforcement and surveillance to detect and deter illegal fishing activities, and compliance has improved significantly as a result. Serious infringements in the NAFO regulatory area declined from thirteen in 2005 to seven in 2006, one in 2007, and zero in 2008.

We have also seen tangible results of increased cooperation, better management measures consistent with scientific advice, and enforcement vigilance. As a result, important stocks such as yellowtail flounder, 3M cod, and 3LN redfish have recovered, and other stocks such as American plaice are also showing signs of recovery. At the recent NAFO annual meeting, NAFO reopened two stocks—3M cod and 3LN redfish—after a decade of their being under moratorium.

But improved enforcement and conservation and cooperation was only one part of the solution. Canada has consistently worked within NAFO to develop scientific advice and adopt conservation and management measures to effectively manage straddling stocks important to Canada, such as Greenland halibut, yellowtail flounder, 3L shrimp, and others. We recognized that there was a need to reconsider the way NAFO makes decisions on how we govern ourselves as an organization. That's why we as NAFO members negotiated and adopted amendments to the 1978 convention in 2007. Canada supported these amendments because they are important and beneficial for Canada. Provincial governments and industry representatives were there by our side throughout the whole multi-year process and were consulted extensively. All the stakeholders involved agreed with us that the amendments were in the interest of Canada. Senior officials of the Newfoundland and Labrador government were full members of the Canadian delegation that negotiated these amendments and supported us throughout the negotiations.

As I said earlier, NAFO faces very different issues today from those when the original convention was agreed to in 1978. Parties today are committed to applying an ecosystem-based approach to fisheries management in the northwest Atlantic, which includes protecting the marine environment, preserving marine biodiversity, and reducing the risks of long-term impacts of fishing. The amendments to the NAFO convention are designed to provide the organization with a more modern and forward-looking governance framework that will allow it to meet its ongoing and future commitments under the United Nations Fish Stocks Agreement, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, and other international instruments.

Mr. Chairman, I will outline the key benefits of the amended convention to try to address some of the concerns that have been raised.

First, under the original 1978 NAFO convention, fish stocks were managed as a single species, and management decisions did not always adhere to the received scientific advice. Over time, this type of management proved to be ineffective for the long-term health of the fish stocks. As a result, more than ten stocks have been under moratorium for many years and are only starting to recover.

The amended convention now shifts NAFO to an ecosystem-based approach to decision-making, an approach that considers the inner relationship between marine species and between these species and their habitats. This includes considering how catches of one fish stock would affect other species as well as identifying and addressing the impacts of particular fishing gear on sensitive ocean habitats.

Second, under the 1978 rules, members could object to any management decision deciding on a unilateral quota and fish it without any constraint even if it ultimately results in overfishing. The old convention also lacked a dispute settlement process, leading to long-standing disagreements.

Under the amended NAFO convention, we will have a controlled system to address objections and disputes, a system that requires a contracting party that objects to a conservation and management measure to set out alternative measures it intends to take for the conservation and management of the fishery, consistent with the objectives of the convention and an active role of the commission in trying to resolve the issues. In this way contracting parties will be held accountable for their actions, so that we avoid these unnecessary and counterproductive situations and reduce overfishing.

Third, under the original convention rules, NAFO's decisions were made by a simple majority vote, leaving an impression that we're only winners and losers. In some cases, particularly in the late 1980s and early 1990s, this led to defiance of the rules, unilateral quotas and overfishing. The amended convention emphasizes consensus. A two-thirds majority voting system has been introduced for those situations where consensus cannot be reached. Any NAFO member that wishes to change the way NAFO allocates fish must obtain support from eight of the twelve NAFO members instead of the seven needed before. As a result of this change, Canada's fish quotas in NAFO will be better protected, thus addressing a key preoccupation of the Canadian industry.

I would like to comment on the criticisms of the amended convention. In summary, the concerns are as follows: one, the government failed to protect Canada's sovereignty to make decisions for fisheries management enforcement within Canadian waters; two, the changes in the rules on decision-making from the requirement of the simple majority to a two-thirds majority will weaken Canada's ability to obtain support for more restrictive conservation-based management proposals in NAFO; three, the amendments with respect to the objection procedure are not robust enough to limit objections and unilateral decisions; and four, the dispute settlement procedure in the amended convention is useless as it does not provide for binding decisions.

Briefly, these criticisms are unfounded. I will respond to each of these respectively.

First with respect to sovereignty, the amended convention is quite clear. Canada maintains control over its waters, and NAFO measures will not be applied in Canadian waters unless Canada requests that they apply and votes in favour of such a measure.

The amended NAFO convention explicitly maintains Canada's sovereign right to take management decisions on fisheries within its 200-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone. It is clear that NAFO has no mandate to take management decisions within Canadian waters, nor does it give foreign vessels rights to fish in Canadian waters. I would also note that this provision applies to all coastal states, Denmark for Greenland, France for St. Pierre and Miquelon, and the U.S.A. None of these parties seem to be troubled by this article.

Second, with respect to the change to a two-thirds requirement as previously noted, this will better provide protection for Canadian quota shares in the NAFO stocks. This reflects the priority of Canadian industry in Canada to protect quota shares.

Third, with respect to the objection procedure, the amended convention provides for constraints on the use of the objection procedure, limiting the grounds for objecting, placing the onus on the party wishing to object to demonstrate grounds for its objection and to adopt equivalent conservation measures while the objection procedure operates.

Fourth, the amended convention strengthens decision-making by including, for the first time, timely mechanisms to resolve disputes, and contracting parties can invoke dispute settlement procedures that ultimately provide for binding decisions.

Canada's interests are better protected with the amendments to the NAFO convention. The reforms are in Canada's best interests and the interests of fish stocks in the northwest Atlantic. They provide clear benefits important to Canada for Canada's fishing industry. They will help to ensure the conservation and sustainable management of fish stocks and ecosystems in the northwest Atlantic.

Mr. Chairman, before I close, I would like to briefly report on the recent NAFO meeting held from September 21 to 25.

Canada succeeded in persuading NAFO to adopt conservation-oriented outcomes that are important to Canada to protect fish stocks and their ecosystems in the NAFO regulatory area. The decisions included the setting of the total allowable catches and quotas for 2010, which include a rollover of the TAC of 16,000 tonnes of Greenland halibut for one year.

As I noted previously, we reached agreement to reopen two stocks that have been closed to fishing for 10 years, and Canadian quota shares of these stocks were maintained at pre-moratorium levels. These stocks have now sufficiently recovered to allow targeted fisheries.

There was also a commitment to redouble efforts to reduce the bycatch of southern Grand Banks for 3NO cod and additional measures to protect vulnerable marine ecosystems, such as corals and sponges.

Canada takes scientific advice seriously. In fact, the TAC decisions made at NAFO clearly reflect the scientific advice that we're within the safe scientific parameters. The NAFO decisions on the reopened stocks also incorporated additional conservation measures to ensure the continued recovery of these stocks. In addition, incorporated into a number of the decisions were commitments to undertake additional research to improve the scientific advice and to improve the reliability of the catch statistics to improve future decision-making.

The NAFO decisions took account of the views of Canadian industry and the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The Canadian industry representatives on the Canadian delegation expressed to me their satisfaction with the NAFO outcomes, which will provide significant economic benefits to the economy and people of Newfoundland and Labrador. By Canadian industry estimates, the maintenance of the TAC for Greenland halibut means over $25 million, primarily for the Newfoundland and Labrador economy.

With respect to 3L shrimp, Canada's quota next year will remain at almost 25,000 tonnes, with a harvest value of $29.7 million.

The total allowable catch of yellowtail flounder was maintained at 17,000 tonnes for 2010, and Canada's share of 16,575 tonnes has an estimated harvest value of over $6 million.

The reopening of 3LN redfish stocks will provide 1,500 tonnes, with an estimated harvest value of about $1 million.

These outcomes will provide benefits primarily to the economy and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to say this.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Balfour.

Now we'll move over to Mr. Kessel.

9:30 a.m.

Legal Advisor and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Alan H. Kessel

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, I thank you for inviting me to appear before you today on the reform of the convention on multilateral cooperation in the Northwest Atlantic fisheries.

My name is Alan Kessel, I am the legal advisor at Foreign Affairs and International Trade and I am accompanied by Caterina Ventura, acting director of the Oceans and Environmental Law Division. We are always pleased to appear before you, together with our colleagues.

Mr. Balfour has outlined the amendments to the 1978 NAFO convention. In my brief presentation, I would like to situate the amendments in the broader context of the international legal framework.

As required by the extensive international legal framework in place, international collaboration is necessary for the sustainable management of fisheries for stocks that are both within and outside the jurisdiction of states.

When discussing oceans issues, it's useful to start with the constitution for the oceans, the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which Canada ratified in 2003 and which Canada in fact was very instrumental in crafting. It sets out the framework for many aspects of ocean governance, including areas in which states have sovereign rights and exercise jurisdiction.

A coastal state has sovereign rights over the natural resources within 200 nautical miles. This of course includes the right to conserve and manage fisheries. Beyond the 200-nautical-mile limit on the high seas, foreign vessels have freedom to fish.

However, this right to fish is not an unfettered right. Indeed, UNCLOS mandates states to cooperate in the conservation and management of living resources in the areas of the high seas. In this regard, states fishing these resources have the obligation to enter into negotiations to take measures for their conservation or, as appropriate, cooperate to establish regional fisheries organizations to this end.

This brings me to the discussion of the 1995 United Nations agreement on straddling and highly migratory fish stocks, which Canada ratified in 1999. The UN fish stocks agreement establishes a regime for the long-term conservation and sustainable use of these stocks.

The agreement elaborates on the duty of states to cooperate in the management of straddling and highly migratory fish stocks on the high seas. It reiterates the duty to cooperate by coastal states and by states fishing on the high seas to conserve and manage such stocks. It also provides that the conservation and management measures adopted both within and outside these areas under national jurisdiction shall be compatible.

The UN fish stocks agreement gives priority to regional fisheries management organizations as the most effective means for states to cooperate in the conservation and management of these stocks. The UN fish stocks agreement encourages states to cooperate through RFMOs or other arrangements to conserve and manage straddling and highly migratory fish stocks.

The Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization, also known as NAFO, is the RFMO for the northwest Atlantic. Its objective has always been to ensure the management and conservation of fish stocks in the NAFO convention area, which is the area both inside and outside of Canada's 200-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone.

NAFO contracting parties have the duty to cooperate in furthering the objectives of the convention. For that purpose, each coastal state has the obligation to inform NAFO of the actions it has taken for the conservation and management of straddling stocks within its national jurisdiction.

The amendments recognized the importance of compatibility of conservation and management measures as reflected in the UN fish stocks agreement by providing states the option to request that a measure be adopted by NAFO for an area under the jurisdiction of that state. Therefore, it is the coastal state, in the exercise of its sovereign rights, that requests NAFO to adopt the measures in the state's jurisdiction.

Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, the amended NAFO convention incorporates principles of modern fisheries governance while providing sufficient safeguards for the protection of Canada's sovereign rights in its waters.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much to both departments for coming here today and for sharing this with us. It's my understanding that this convention and this agreement are also going to be studied by our fisheries committee, but international conventions are a responsibility of the foreign affairs department, so thanks to both departments for being here.

We'll move into the first round of questioning with Mr. Byrne.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to my colleagues in the Liberal Party for allowing me to sit in on the foreign affairs committee on the NAFO issue. I welcome Scott Simms, who is joining as well. Thanks again for the opportunity.

I want to direct a question immediately to Mr. Balfour.

Mr. Balfour, you raised the issue of recent decisions of NAFO specifically with respect to Greenland halibut, cod, and two other species. NAFO just recently decided to increase the quotas for several vulnerable fish species in excess of what the NAFO scientific council had recommended. Specifically for Greenland halibut, a recommendation came in at 14,000. NAFO decided that 16,000 was actually the appropriate quota, not 14,000. So 4.5 million pounds of Greenland halibut will be taken in excess of what the scientific advice recommends.

On cod, not only has the World Wildlife Fund said that cod is being overfished as a bycatch, but we actually reopened the 3M fishery well after a 10-year moratorium, well above the scientific recommendation. That's NAFO's decision. The Government of Canada's policy is that we have now instituted custodial management on the nose and tail on the Grand Banks. Why doesn't Canada just invoke custodial management and set that decision right, to at least a minimum of what the scientific council's scientific advice recommends to be the actual quota? Why not invoke custodial management? Apparently we haven't.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Byrne.

Mr. Balfour.

9:35 a.m.

Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Balfour

At the recent NAFO meeting, all the decisions taken by the NAFO fisheries council were inside the scientific advice that was presented. For example, with respect to Greenland halibut, there was a great deal of uncertainty about the status of that stock, largely as a result of an inability for a scientific survey to be completed because of a breakdown of a vessel in 2008. Therefore, the scientific advice that came forward was a projection of the advice that was considered by the NAFO fisheries council in 2008.

At that point there was a decision by the fisheries council to continue the quota at 16,000 tonnes while requesting the scientific council to review the robustness of the methodology they used to provide prediction of the TAC recommendation for that stock. The reason was that the actual experience on fishing grounds, both within the Canadian zone by Canadian inshore fixed-gear harvesters and the offshore, again this year showed that the catches were at the highest level on record and there was the need to take a look at the basis for the calculation.

The scientific council reviewed six models, five of which, based on the data, projected an increase in the abundance of the stock. One suggested that there was a downward decline, which was the basis of the scientific advice received this year. Given the uncertainty, the fisheries council, on the initiative of the Canadian delegation, undertook a number of measures to improve the science for next year. These included additional science to be undertaken by Canada and others to determine the contribution of large turbot that exist in waters deeper than 1,500 feet, the level at which scientific surveys are currently being conducted, to come to a determination of how these larger turbot are contributing to the stock's bonding biomass. That's a major gap in this science.

There are issues in terms of the scientific models that use catch reports based on extrapolations of scientific observers on Spanish vessels that put catches at 50% higher than our conservation and surveillance records have shown our catches would have been in the NAFO regulatory area, creating a skewing in the model. There is also going to be work to develop a risk management strategy for the management of Greenland halibut, which would involve scientists, managers, and industry, in order that there be an improvement next year in the science knowledge of this stock. At the same time, the science advice received by NAFO showed that, over time, that stock was stable and it was a reasonable position to continue the TAC at 16,000 tonnes.

With respect to the 3M cod fishery that occurs on the Flemish Cap, the scientific advice suggested a range at which fishing could reopen and still see a rebuilding of that stock above 8,000 tonnes. The scientific advice included a spot reference point at 4,125 tonnes, which is very conservative, in combination with a number of management measures adopted by NAFO, again at the initiative of the Canadian delegation, to see that with this stock being reopened after a moratorium--

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I think we're having a fairly lengthy discussion about science, which I would refute, but in the interest of time, if I could move to some other questions, it may be--

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You only have 30 seconds.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

He's done an extremely good job of ragging the puck here, Mr. Chair.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

No, I think the time is allocated, and you asked one question and he's responding to it. So if you have a quick comment, you're welcome to make it.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Sure.

Moving on directly to the objection procedure, the impression probably left with the committee is that no objection procedure can be allowed, that the decisions are now binding. Yet article 14 goes on at length providing 12 different paragraphs explaining how member states and NAFO contracting parties can actually implement an objection procedure and have that procedure go on for about a four-year period.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Your time is up, and we try to keep to a time, especially because we have other guests coming.

We'll move on to the Bloc Québécois. Monsieur Blais, vous avez sept minutes.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank also my colleague Francine Lalonde who is leaving it up to me to ask questions today.

At the same time, have no fear, members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, this is not an invasion by the Standing Committee of Fisheries and Oceans. You will certainly understand that we do not want to invade the Standing Committee of Foreign Affairs and International Development. We are very much interested in this issue and this will allow us to ask our questions, but in a completely different venue. At the same time, this will enable you to try and move forward in this file.

My first question is for Mr. Balfour. Did you find the old convention inefficient?

9:40 a.m.

Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Balfour

I believe the previous convention reflected the context of the times it was established in. That was a time pre the moratoria that we had established where we saw 10 stocks in NAFO closed for over 10 years. It's a time before our industry and the industries of other countries and their communities had to deal with the hardship and the cost of seeing their fisheries curtailed. It's before a time when modern instruments were established for the management of fisheries on the high seas.

We have today a growing interest in the world on the part of the public, environmental NGOs, the fishing industry, and governments in ensuring that we secure fisheries so they're conducted on a sustainable basis. This is becoming a growing imperative in markets, as you would be aware, sir. It's not possible, the way it was in the past, that one could object, declare a quota that one would fish or even ignore to the point where one puts the conservation of a resource at risk in that one was clearly overfishing and expected to get away with that in the world and in the marketplace. So I do think things have changed very much.

Now we have a proposed convention that reflects the modern approaches, the heavy emphasis on cooperation in the adoption of management measures. We have mechanisms to bring to closure disputes that didn't exist before; and with the new convention, we have the tools in hand to ensure that we secure the sustainability and the conservation harvesting basis for the use of these resources for now and into future generations.