Evidence of meeting #43 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-300.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Duhamel, the committee has heard from many witnesses on this, as you know, and it's been raised numerous times, the concern about frivolous and vexatious complaints that may be made by anyone, any citizen of the country where the extraction process may be taking place, or even by someone who's not from that country, a third party, even by a mining company with competing interests.
I thought I heard you say in your opening remarks that if complaints turn out to be frivolous, so be it. There are members of this committee that actually are concerned about that. I just wonder if that's what you actually intended to say or if you would care to qualify what you mean by that, because it sounds like you're being very dismissive about frivolous complaints.
10:15 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
First of all, I would like to specify that I was using a quote from Supreme Court of Canada Judge Ian Binnie's conference . Actually, he's requesting a law as well in Canada to hold the Canadian companies operating abroad responsible for that.
It remains to be proven that they are frivolous. It remains to be proven that the allegations are unfounded.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
So even if allegations go out there, as you say, the department has clearly testified that sometimes it's a lengthy procedure to establish guilt or responsibility in a case like this, especially--as the department said just recently--the link between actions of a Canadian extractive company in grave breaches of human rights, which might be committed by the state itself, is unclear.
You think the fact that a company's stock could be decimated, the value of the company and their shares...their stockholders...is just a price of doing business, when a complaint may turn out to be actually frivolous or unfounded?
10:15 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
I'm not sure if you're implying that frivolous complaints can destroy a company.
10:15 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
I don't know if you've been following what's going on in the States with the lawsuits.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
10:15 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
The lawsuits in the States have enabled the companies to clear their reputation.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Many times the damage is already done. A company like—
10:15 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
They have survived.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Your expertise, as I understand it, is human rights law. Is that correct?
10:15 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
International law and international human rights law, yes.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Just recently we had another firm before committee that made this submission. They said:
The bill abandons the collaborative multi-stakeholder approach to CSR accepted worldwide as the most effective way to enhance CSR in favour of a punitive approach. We believe such an approach will not only fail to enhance global CSR standards but will stunt the achievements of Canadian mining companies in the area of CSR.
You heard the DFAIT officials themselves a few minutes ago talk about the necessity of establishing processes, that procedural fairness, due process, and natural justice have to be applied here. That is not something that can be established instantly, and you seem to be quite dismissive about the legal challenges that presents in having the department be able to do this quasi-judicial approach.
10:15 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
No, no. I would clarify what I just said in my presentation:
“As to the way in which complaints are dealt with, the rules of procedural fairness and natural justice apply to all administrative bodies established by a Canadian act. It is assumed that Bill C-300 complies with the Constitution and with the principles of procedural fairness.“
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Oh. I was going to....
On the role of the CSR counsellor, once she has done a process, which is public and the results of which are made known, if a company were not to cooperate with that--because one of the criticisms is that there's no teeth because they can't force them--do you not feel that public censure for not participating would be a serious problem for the company?
10:15 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
I would answer that unresolved allegations have amounted to violence and degradation of the situation in the field for all parties. Canadians have been the subject of pillages incendies. The stakeholders are all affected by this.
What I'm saying is that we need a forum for people to be heard, and not leave these claims unresolved.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
10:15 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I believe I heard at the start of your testimony that you had experience within DFAIT?
10:15 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Okay.
We heard, and it has been alluded to here, that this bill would generate a cost, and as a result it may need royal assent before having the potential to go forward, or it might even be a matter of confidence before the House.
Listening to what you've just said, and you talked about the existing procedures, it sounds like changing over is more a matter of holding accountability than it is some exorbitant new cost. How would you address the difference between what we have today and where this takes us, and how would you see the cost within DFAIT?
10:20 a.m.
Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada
I am not in a position to answer that. Although I was a consultant for DFAIT, I don't know the machine inside.
10:20 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Okay. Then I'll take you to another area.
In my experience in dealing with Canadians, in my riding and across the country over the years, there's an innate sense of what is just here, and a belief that Canada is a nation that believes in human rights and stands up for human rights.
Earlier, in the previous testimony, I talked about the fact that I've had people from the Philippines and other communities come through my office talking about situations that have occurred in those countries.
I'm not asking you to name a Canadian company in what I'm about to ask you, just to be very clear. Are you aware of any Canadian companies through this “self-management” system, as I call it, that they're under when they're in foreign lands, where they, either directly or indirectly, or by neglect, were complicit in the violation of human rights?
