Evidence of meeting #81 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was africa.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Chapin  As an Individual
Colin Robertson  Vice-President and Senior Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
Lucien Bradet  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Africa

12:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Paul Chapin

Could I make the point here that once CIDA was established as an agency by order in council, it kind of immunized itself from the rest of government? This made it very hard for the rest of government to deal with CIDA, except through either a very high level or maybe at the working level. I know from my days as a desk officer in Foreign Affairs and as a director general in Foreign Affairs and at embassies, it has always been an aggravation that the Government of Canada couldn't get its act together, its resources together, to do certain things together.

In a sense, this has been a long time coming, but it has been thought about, probably since the day CIDA was created, and then somebody in Foreign Affairs said, “What kind of a crazy idea is this?”

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Should anybody in the NGO community in Canada be surprised by this?

12:30 p.m.

Vice-President and Senior Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute

Colin Robertson

I think this has been talked about for a long time. I go back. The external aid office was part of Foreign Affairs. We did the Colombo Plan under the old external affairs department. It's not as though this wasn't a piece of it and then it was taken out. Again, we're talking about the boxes.

From the time I joined as well, this has always been a continuing debate, including within the development community itself. It's just asking, how do we get, bluntly, the best bang for our buck, and how do we ensure that foreign policy integrates all the various strands?

This is overdue and highly sensible, as long as we get through the integration quickly and then get onto the policy side.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

It has to be executed correctly and prudently, I understand. In any merger of any two great organizations, it's all about the administration of the integration and the personal relationships. I'm sure we'll be mindful of that.

Do any of you have any other comments?

12:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Paul Chapin

I just have one comment, if I am allowed to respond to a point that Mr. Dewar made a little while ago.

Boy, do we need a foreign policy that people can get hold of and talk about. It doesn't have to be forever and a day. It's not the gospel truth, but it needs to be articulated regularly, particularly by new governments so that everybody else gets the message about what's now important.

I would argue that if you look at the report of the Auditor General that came out a couple of months ago, if you look at where the money is going for international development assistance, CIDA has a good chunk of it. Then there is another half a dozen or a dozen government departments with the money, too. But there is a column in the AG's report indicating how much of this money is actually transferred to international institutions, mostly UN and UN-related, and out of the total of $5.1 billion, it's almost $3 billion.

What we're talking about in the reorganization here is how to better deal with the $2.1 billion that's left over. We need to look very seriously at the international architecture we're using, because if we want to alleviate poverty, Canada is going to be able to do this much, but the UN system and all those agencies are where the answer lies, and we need to be much more diligent in going after these institutions, including, if we have to, threatening to leave them and go someplace else with our money. If we want to be in the results-oriented business, and we really want to alleviate poverty, it can be done, just as we can alleviate polio and all these other things if we put our minds to it, but not if we're simply on the same old track.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

It sounds like you may have given us an opportunity for future discussions on what we may be studying in terms of large organizations.

That's all the time we have.

I know Ms. May has come in and wants to ask a question. We need unanimous consent if that's going to be the case. I need unanimous consent for Ms. May to ask a question to move forward. If not, we're done.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Are we on committee business?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Not yet, but we will be. We're going to suspend first, but Ms. May wanted to come in and ask a question. I need unanimous consent from the committee for that to happen.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

No.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

All right.

Witnesses, thank you very much for being here. We had some great discussion today. We want to thank you very much.

We will suspend and we will come back to deal with committee business.

Thank you very much.

[Proceedings continue in camera]