Foreign Affairs Committee on May 5th, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and our study of the situation in Hong Kong, we'll get started.

As a reminder to those with cameras in the room, while we're actually in the meeting there's no photography permitted. I'll ask you to shut down the cameras, and then after we're done you guys can resume.

I want to first thank all our witnesses for being here today.

I want to introduce Charles Burton, an associate professor in the Department of Political Science at Brock University.

We're glad to have you today here, sir.

From the Hong Kong Federation of Students, we have Nathan Kwung Chung Law, who is the secretary general.

Welcome to you, all the way from Hong Kong. Thank you very much for being here.

Via video conference from Hong Kong, we have Audrey Eu, who is the chairman of the Civic Party.

We also have, from Scholarism, Joshua Wong, who is the convenor. I want to point out that in Hong Kong it's now 11 p.m., so he'll be joining us from 11 p.m. to 1 a.m.

We thank you very much for staying up late to participate in this meeting of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs.

I'm going to start with opening testimony, and we're going to start with you, Mr. Burton. We'll have seven minutes each for opening statements from the four of you, and then we will move back and forth across the aisles and across the tables to ask questions for the remaining time we have.

Mr. Burton, thank you for being here. I will turn the floor over to you. You have seven minutes.

[Dr. Charles Burton, Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Allison, and thank you very much for inviting me to appear today to give evidence on the situation in Hong Kong.

I would like to provide you with some context based on my knowledge of Canada's interaction with the Government of China and the British embassy in Beijing with regard to the arrangements that were being made made for Hong Kong at the time. I was serving as a diplomat in the Canadian embassy to China on my first posting in the early 1990s, and because of the concern that Canada had over this matter we had quite a number of interactions with the Government of China and the British embassy.

I think we were engaged on this question of the reversion of Hong Kong to Chinese sovereignty due to two major factors at the time.

First, the Chinese community in Canada was very concerned about what would happen in Hong Kong after 1997. At that time the Chinese community in Canada consisted largely of Cantonese-speaking Canadians, most of whom had connections in Hong Kong and family there. As we know, due to the political uncertainty about what would happen in Hong Kong after 1997, we had very high levels of immigration from Hong Kong to Canada in the years leading up to 1997. I had a look at the website of our Canadian Consulate General in Hong Kong. It says, “Hong Kong boasts one of the largest Canadian communities abroad (an estimated 295,000). This community, along with some 500,000 people of Hong Kong descent in Canada, plays a dynamic role in building vibrant bilateral relations.” There are estimates that place the number of Canadians living in Hong Kong even higher, in the sense that a number of Canadians who are in Hong Kong may not have identified themselves to the Consulate General. It's probably more, and some say there are as many as a half a million Canadians in Hong Kong at present.

As an aside, if the current crackdown on civic liberties in Hong Kong continues, we could see a large number of Canadians leaving Hong Kong to resume residency in Canada. That would be an effect that would have an impact on us. I think if things continue to deteriorate there, we could also see a significant increase in the number of consular cases involving Canadians in Hong Kong.

I think the other question that engaged us very much at that time was that because the issue of Hong Kong’s future was in question, much of Canada's trade with China in those years was brokered through Hong Kong. Prior to 1997 Canadian businesses that did business in China typically had their headquarters in Hong Kong in those years. It was very important to Canada that the transition to Chinese sovereignty be done in such a way as to protect our significant economic interests there.

That's why we sought and we received assurances from both the Government of the People's Republic of China and the Government of the United Kingdom over the promises of “one country, two systems”, “no change for 50 years”, and that “Hong Kong people would govern Hong Kong”.

I think with regard to the last, it was clear that this meant Hong Kong would be governed by Hong Kong people who would represent the aspirations and interests of the people in Hong Kong. There was no indication that this would mean the citizens of Hong Kong would be told, in effect, that you can elect whoever you want, providing it's either Tweedledum or Tweedledee, both of whom will be representing the interests of the Chinese Communist party and its business elite in Hong Kong. There was no ambiguity about this, based on my memory of the discussions at the time.

We had good feelings about the 50 years of no change formula, because we expected, from statements by Mr. Deng Xiaoping and his successor, that China would be making a political transformation to modern norms of democracy and rule of law before 50 years were up. We thought the one country, two systems, issue would be resolved by China gradually coming into compliance with international norms of governance. Over the period of negotiations on Hong Kong there were strong indications that this was already happening. The Chinese started to have village elections, which we expected would expand upwards in a staged way from villages to counties, to provinces, to election for the president of China.

Moreover, in 1998 China signed the UN's International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Canada was immediately very forthcoming with offers of developmental aid to assist the Chinese authorities in bringing Chinese law and practices into compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. We offered assistance in how to fulfill the relevant UN reporting requirements because our anticipation was that if China signed the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, they would move to ratification, but 17 years later we see no movement in that direction; in fact, it could be the other way around.

Up until 2012, the Chinese leadership would give us periodic assurances that democratic political institutions and full rule of law were social goals of the regime, even though they couldn't do it immediately due to historical, cultural, and developmental factors. We were told to wait, and we waited a long time. Then in 2012, there was a new leadership in China under President Xi Jinping, and shortly after he assumed his leadership, President Xi made a number of statements that strongly and explicitly renounced key political ideals such as constitutionalism and freedom of the press, speech, and assembly. He's renounced judicial independence and separation of powers as incompatible with sustained Communist party rule in China. One of the party’s official newspapers, the Global Times, has condemned these freedoms as “a ticket to hell” for China. So it's pretty clear that they're not moving towards our interpretation of democracy and rule of law under this current leadership.

I would see the recent backtracking on the promise of Hong Kong people governing Hong Kong and the fraying of the promise of 50 years no change as connected to this new political orientation in China, which is explicitly anti the universal values of human rights and governance.

But it is clear that the Chinese government's sovereignty over Hong Kong is conditioned by its international agreements comprised by the joint declaration and the “basic law”. I would suggest that the Government of Canada would do well to take the lead with other like-minded nations informally monitoring China's compliance with the joint declaration and the basic law, because it's in our national interest to do so. I think it would be prudent for Canada to respond to the Chinese government's discarding of its commitment to democracy and human rights—as we understand those terms—and the moving backwards on legal protections for Chinese citizens by readjusting the way that we do our engagement with China. We have a three-part policy mix, I think, where we want to realize Canadian prosperity in China, protect Canadian security from Chinese espionage and so on, and ensure that Canadian values inform our programming with China. I think we should be re-emphasizing our commitment to those Canadian values while strengthening our programming with China to promote trade and investment and to address the serious problem of Chinese espionage.

China's policies have changed. They have implications for how Canada should be doing foreign policy with China. I think we are perceived as offering tacit consent for what is happening in Hong Kong and in China at large by not speaking out and by not following up what we say with constructive foreign policy programming. I don't think this would have a significant impact on our trade with China, if we manage it correctly, and I think we are strengthened in our foreign relations with China if we can gain respect by being true to what we believe.

I note that ministers Baird and Paradis last December 10, in their statement to mark Human Rights Day, said: “Canada stands for what is right and just, regardless of whether it is popular, convenient or expedient.” I think the people of Canada expect nothing less from us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Burton.

We'll now turn it over to Mr. Law.

Sir, the floor is yours.

[Kwun Chung Law, Secretary General, Hong Kong Federation of Students]

Thank you very much, honourable chair and honourable members of the standing committee, for inviting me to give evidence on Hong Kong's situation.

Prior to last year's movement, the organization we represent, the Hong Kong Federation of Students, spent over two years organizing deliberation days, referendums with the participation of over 13,000 students, and assemblies regarding Hong Kong's future. We repeatedly invited Hong Kong government officials to have a discussion with us on political reform proposals, but the government refused to meet with us. Working within the system, we have tried every single lawful means to initiate a meaningful dialogue. The Hong Kong government has refused to listen once again.

Finally, the National People's Congress Standing Committee decided that only candidates approved by the Communist party could run for the Chief Executive. Automatically, we had no choice but to organize a class boycott, hoping that this would lead to a dialogue with the Chief Executive in which our fears could be fully presented. Again, sadly, we were rejected.

Since the HKSAR government refused to even acknowledge our basic human right of free expression, we had no choice but to use peaceful civil disobedience to make our voices heard. Civil disobedience was the last resort for the people of Hong Kong. It was the only way to make the oppression visible to the world and to mobilize the people of Hong Kong to protect their human rights, including their democratic rights.

We took this decision very seriously. We knew we would be sacrificing our study time and going without rest, but it became much worse than that. Two days after the action began, the police attacked us with 87 cans of tear gas, beat the students with batons, and showed a banner stating “Disperse or we will fire”. They were carrying Remington 870-gauge and Colt AR-15 weapons, which can kill.

Try to imagine, if the police had fired, would the foreign investors stay in Hong Kong? No, they would leave immediately. If this is the HKSAR government's response to protestors who are asking only for the rights that they have been promised in the joint declaration and basic law, what will the future be in Hong Kong?

We are afraid that young people in Hong Kong face the future with increased feelings of hopelessness. Compared to other developed regions worldwide, Hong Kong has the largest and highest wealth gap, and property is the most unaffordable. Upward social mobility for young people is very low. Since 1997, Hong Kong has gone through a continuous process of “mainlandization”, where freedom of press, expression, and association, rule of law, and human rights have drastically deteriorated.

Beijing's interference with Hong Kong's domestic affairs is deep and wide. In the education centre they even try to brainwash the public and secondary school children with their so-called patriotic national education, where the Chinese Communist party has been described as a “progressive, selfless, and united” ruling party.

Without genuine universal suffrage in the election of Chief Executive and legislative councillors, the HKSAR government has not shown any accountability to the Hong Kong citizens, especially the younger generation. They feel that they don't matter in the society. We, the younger generation, feel that we don't matter in the society. When you peacefully ask for your rights, you are hit with tear gas and batons. Eventually, the police violence aggravates and prolongs the protests. In other words, unless universal suffrage is genuine in the political system in Hong Kong, this is a recipe for disaster, not for a world-class city or a stable financial centre.

There is only one way to make the younger generation feel hopeful in Hong Kong. That is to entrench Hong Kong with genuine democracy and balance of power so that the younger generation can take ownership of their own future. Subsequently, the society will be stabilized and the conflict in the society between the citizens and the government will be reduced.

If Hong Kong could establish a democratic system, it would help the second-largest economy, which is China, to comply with the international code of democracy, freedom, and rule of law, thus benefiting the world's economy and development. Furthermore, if China can breach an international agreement such as the Sino-British joint declaration, which Canada and many other countries endorsed, what international treaty will it choose to violate next?

We know that if you were in our position, if you didn't have the right to freely vote for candidates to represent you in an election, you would do the same as what we have done last year. We are very grateful that you are taking your national obligations seriously as an endorser of the joint declaration and as friends of Hong Kong and given us all hope with your all-party motion last November. We are so grateful for your support of the people of Hong Kong.

In view of China's denial of the effectiveness of the Sino-British joint declaration after July 1, 1997, and the betrayal of their promise to the Hong Kong people with respect to the political reform of political leaders with universal suffrage, we respectfully make a few recommendations.

The first is that the Canadian government issue an official statement urging China to honour and fulfill the promises made to the Hong Kong people in the Sino-British joint declaration and basic law. In respect of one country, two systems, Hong Kong people will remain in Hong Kong with a high degree of autonomy and constitutional reform on the election of political leaders with universal suffrage.

Number two is that Canada joins forces with other countries that have endorsed the Sino-British joint declaration to closely monitor the implementation of the international declaration in Hong Kong. Send a delegation to Hong Kong to observe the implementation of the declaration there.

Number three is that the human rights committee of the Canadian Parliament conduct a comprehensive study on the deterioration of human rights in Hong Kong.

Hong Kong is facing a dilemma. The world is watching us to see whether human rights will eventually be deprived. But we must uphold the core values of democracy, human rights, and justice.

Thank you to all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Law.

Now we're going to turn over to Hong Kong.

We'll invite Audrey Eu to give her opening remarks for seven minutes.

[Audrey Eu, Chairman, Civic Party, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Chair, and honourable members.

I'd like, first of all, to thank the Canadian Parliament for your concern in relation to Hong Kong. I'd also like to thank you for the opportunity you've given me today.

I have prepared speaking notes, which I believe have been put on your desks. I will only summarize a few points.

As you all know, the joint declaration that was signed between the U.K. and China has been endorsed by many countries, including Canada, and it's been registered with the UN. Therefore, the adherence to one country, two systems, Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong, and a high degree of autonomy in Hong Kong is a matter of international concern.

In my speaking notes, I quoted from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, and that shows that we share common aspirations. I am sure we hope that Hong Kong will move forward, maintaining our systems, under one country, two systems, and also maintaining our core values. I also mentioned that Hong Kong people have been waiting and waiting and waiting for the implementation of universal suffrage, which has been promised in the basic law. Each time, our hopes have been dashed. It's been pushed back and pushed back, each time our hopes dashed again. Now we've really come to the crunch time, because we're now preparing for the 2017 election of the Chief Executive. It's really like a pressure cooker being pushed to the limits.

Last year the government carried out consultation. The heading of the consultation was “Let's Talk”. Everybody in Hong Kong talked. We talked about the system we'd like to see, and everybody, obviously, had different ideas. But our hopes were dashed again, because on the 31st of August of last year the National People's Congress Standing Committee came up with what we call the 8-31 decision, which was a straitjacket worse than anybody had ever suggested in Hong Kong. It wasn't a product of Hong Kong discussion or Hong Kong talking. It was imposed upon us by Beijing.

Earlier this month, the SAR government, the Hong Kong government, came up with the proposal that follows, of course, the 8-31 decision. As you've heard, it's really a pre-screening of candidates by a small circle of 1,200, a Beijing-controlled nominating committee. At the end of the day, Hong Kong would only have two to at most three candidates, who are pre-screened by this nominating committee. This will be put to a vote by our legislature, probably by the end of June. According to our basic law, it has to endorsed by a two-thirds majority of our legislature. The pan-democrats hold more than one third, and they have pledged to veto this package, even though for many years, as I've said, we've been waiting.

At the moment, society is extremely polarized. We have something less than half of the people polled thinking, “Look, there's nothing we can do against the Communist government”—they're resigned to our fate—“so let's pocket it first.” That's the term used. But then we also have a very strong percentage, something close to 40%, who say, “Over my dead body.” We know this is not really universal suffrage. We also know that once we pocket it, that means forever. Beijing will say, well, you have reached the ultimate goal of universal suffrage, and that's in accordance with the law.

Either way, whether the legislature is going to pass it or veto it, it's disastrous for Hong Kong because of this polarization and because, as I said earlier, we've been like a pressure cooker, really pushed to the limit.

The government, of course, is blaming everybody except itself. It blames foreign governments, like yours, for interfering. It blames the media for fanning the public. It blames universities and schools, of course, for also turning out students or young people who are not patriotic enough—that means not loving the Communist party. It also blames the judges for not cooperating with the administration.

In my speaking notes, I've explained and I've given some examples of the damage to the rule of law and also press freedom, another of our core values. I'd be pleased to elaborate later if there are any questions.

What can Canada do? I think it can do a lot. The very fact that the Beijing government always criticizes foreign governments for quote-unquote “interference” is an indication that whatever you say matters a great deal. Every voice counts.

Professor Larry Diamond, an eminent U.S. scholar, used George Orwell's language to describe this package proposed for the election of the Chief Executive. My worry is that Hong Kong is really getting into George Orwell days, because nowadays the line between truth and falsehood often seems blurred. I'm also worried that the rule of law will become rule by law, because our government has a habit of quoting law as they interpret it. I also fear that might is right, because whatever those in power say, then that's the right way to go.

Canada, like many other international powers, cannot stand by when universal values are being threatened and when what is really presented as universal suffrage is really not universal suffrage at all.

I endorse everything that has been said before by Mr. Burton and also by Nathan Law. I do look forward to Canada's support to Hong Kong.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We'll now finish off with Mr. Wong, for seven minute, please.

[Chi Fung Wong, Convenor, Scholarism]

Honourable chair and honourable members of the standing committee, I am Joshua Wong, the convenor of Scholarism and now an 18-year-old university student. Thank you for the Canadian Parliament’s invitation giving me the opportunity to be one of the Hong Kong representatives here.

Today, from a student’s perspective, I hope I can share my experience and exposure to these social movements since the age of 14 by illustrating how the central government of China oppressed the future of the next generation in the aspects of political systems and education. I hope my sharing will help to enhance the international concern about Hong Kong’s democratic progress.

On July 1, 2003, there were 500,000 Hong Kong people out on the streets to protest against article 23 of the basic law, which oppressed freedom of speech. In addition, the people also were striving for universal suffrage. The huge participation in that incident not only caused the stepping down of Tung Chee-hwa, who was the the Chief Executive, but also the withdrawal of article 23.

Since then, as a result, we have observed that the central government began to have a strong feeling about a need to strengthen the Hong Kong people’s identity-recognition of China or even of the Chinese Communist party. Focusing on the identity issue for young people and students, in 2011 the education department announced that all primary school and secondary school students needed to learn the national education curriculum.

In the national education curriculum, there were many parts emphasizing the students' need to establish their obedience as well as their praise towards the Chinese Communist government, with standards such as how students were expected to be touched and to be in tears in front of the national flag-raising ceremony. This means that the national education subject was more than an education subject and in fact was a brainwashing tool.

If the nature of the education was to develop young people’s capability for independent thinking, this subject definitely violated the education principle. It illustrated that the central government just viewed Hong Kong as a ruled and obedient Hong Kong, without any respect towards the young and the students’ right to attain proper citizenship, including the right to criticize the government.

Since then, I have had a strong awareness that not only political parties and teachers' unions should protest against the subject. Therefore, four years ago, at the age of 14, I established a student organization named Scholarism. We gathered a few hundred secondary school students who supported the core values of democracy and freedom. We walked on the street protesting, promoting our values and expressing our requests, and we gained a lot of support from the Hong Kong people.

Later, with the exposure to the public of the government brainwashing education material called “The China Model”, which described the Chinese Communist Party as an “advanced, selfless, and united” ruling organization, the whole city’s protest temperature against this national education was raised rapidly. With the hunger strike of students and 120,000 people in occupation outside the government office, the government finally was forced to put aside the subject. At that time, I was only 15.

Previously, people thought that political movements could only be led by political parties and workers' unions. No one could imagine that secondary school students could plan a social movement. After the success of the anti-national-education movement, more people showed their concerns and gave support to the social actions of the student organizations. Many people began to discover that it was the students' energy, persistence, determination, and courage that had enabled them to stand upon the stage of history for a more equal political system. This is why, after the anti-national-education movement, Scholarism continues to strive for true universal suffrage.

Last year there were different joint activities with the Hong Kong Federation of Students for expressing our dissatisfaction in regard to a decision made on August 31, including a student strike joined by more than 1,000 students in secondary school and 10,000 university students. Also, on September 26, there was a re-entering of the Civic plaza, an action finally triggered as a result of the Umbrella Movement. In the nearly 80 days of the Umbrella Movement, there's not yet any achievement, regardless of the participation of 200,000 Hong Kong people.

But through my experience and participation in the social movement, I want to tell every honourable member here and all the Chinese in Canada after going through the days of the anti-national-education protest and the Umbrella Movement, the lives of students and young people in Hong Kong are no longer the same. The generation of extensive political awareness has already begun. This is the reason I still have hope, even though there is no achievement from the Umbrella Movement and the pro-China people continuously oppress academic freedom and continuously use politically legal prosecution against the protestors.

Honourable members, you may think that in a democratic country, politics should be for the professional participation of political parties and politicians, and social movement in the streets should only be organized by the minority of idealistic university students. But from four years ago until now, the age of social movement participation is declining in Hong Kong. The phenomenon in the Umbrella Movement is that 13-year-old children would participate in the student strike on the street; 14-year-old girls would stand firm against the tear gas, equipped with goggles and masks; while some other 15-year-old students would be arrested for civil disobedience. Not only the senior form secondary school students but even junior form students became activists.

I understand there are many calculations related to international politics. Every day you may attend this kind of hearing routinely, and perhaps there won't be much impact on your next election, whether you care about Hong Kong's issues or not. But please think differently. The children participating in the Umbrella Movement are similar in age to your son and daughter. Maybe you have difficulty understanding why the students living in an international financial centre would rather risk their future to push social reform, regardless of the risk of being blacklisted from entry into China or leaving offence records that may affect their careers. Although young people understand that participation in social movements may affect their future careers, when they also discover they can't see any future in the current system, changing the current system is the only way out.

I hope the Canadian Parliament will continue to be concerned about the Hong Kong situation and exert its influence and pressure on the Chinese government, since maintaining international oversight and engagement is an effective way to support democratic freedom and human rights in Hong Kong.

This is the end of my presentation. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wong.

We're going now to Mr. Dewar for seven minutes of questions and answers.

Mr. Dewar, the floor is yours.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all our witnesses, both here in Ottawa and in Hong Kong.

I want to state, first of all, how impressed I am with the testimony, particularly from our young people, and particularly with the testimony we just heard from Mr. Wong.

We have been seized with this issue here at the foreign affairs committee since the Umbrella Revolution started, mainly because we see Canada's role as being extraordinarily important in ensuring that the commitments that were made, and that Canada had participated in, between China and Hong Kong will continue.

Mr. Burton, in your comments you mentioned that China's position has changed, and I think therefore our position needs to respond to that change.

I also want to note that our sister Parliament in the U.K. recently had a study done and presented a report on Hong Kong, which said the following:

The preservation of both the letter and the spirit of the Joint Declaration is crucial to Hong Kong's economic and business success....In addition to debates on constitutional reform, we heard widespread concern that the autonomy, rights and freedoms guaranteed to Hong Kong in the Joint Declaration and Basic Law have been gradually eroded in recent years....

That's from our sister Parliament in the U.K. in their committee study.

We are doing a study. We are looking to have recommendations that we can submit to our Parliament. I'm glad to have heard recommendations from some of our witnesses.

Mr. Law, regarding the situation since the Umbrella Revolution, the protests that you laid out, and the conditions in which people are living, what is the status right now on the ground in Hong Kong with regard to peaceful demonstrations, the ability for you to speak out, and press freedom? I would note that we just celebrated press freedom day on the weekend. Can you give us an update as to what's happening on the ground in Hong Kong for students, for people who want to continue to speak out, and the press?

Thank you.

[Kwun Chung Law]

Thank you for the question.

First, for the situation in Hong Kong, I think there are lots of people who participated in the Umbrella Movement feeling very depressed and feeling hopeless towards the future. They are looking for ways that could change the current situation. As to their willingness to conduct a peaceful demonstration, I think there still are lots of people who really embrace the importance and effectiveness of peaceful demonstration.

There are a lot of statements and arguments saying there should be a more radical approach towards the protests in Hong Kong. You can see that the situation and the ways of thinking in Hong Kong about demonstration and protest are quite diverse. More and more radical ways of thinking are appearing in Hong Kong.

As for press freedom, I think Hong Kong's press freedom is tending toward one of the lowest levels after the handover in 1997, because there is research conducted by some of the press showing that a lot of publishers and a lot of bookstores in Hong Kong, more than 80%, are controlled by the Communist party.

A lot of superiors in each of the presses are also being placed by the people from China. There is a rating—I forget which organization conducted it—saying that the rating Hong Kong's press freedom attained is a very low level, around 80-something, dropped from 20-something to 80-something in these years. I think the press freedom is a huge concern in Hong Kong. I believe that in the future that's one of the things all the activists and all the politicians in Hong Kong have to focus on.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Burton, I'm interested in your perspective as someone who has served on behalf of our country and is staying on top of the issue. Where do you see an opportunity for us as a country to work with other like-minded countries? We've heard the recommendations from Mr. Law to look at Canada joining with other interested countries in supporting the treaty and ensuring that the treaty is actually going to be enforced. What's your take on that? Who could we work with, reach out to?

[Dr. Charles Burton]

I think certainly it's important that we should be speaking out on this issue. I noted the extraordinary letter that the ambassador of China here in Canada wrote with regard to these hearings, warning us that this could cause a disturbance to China-Canada relations. I think the reason that the Government of China has made such an unprecedented attempt to interfere in a parliamentary committee process is that they are embarrassed when someone of enormous international integrity and reputation, such as Martin Lee, tells us things that are absolutely the truth. I read his testimony. Every word rings absolutely true with me. I think he's a very credible witness.

I think from the Chinese point of view, they prefer that representations be made individually. They would prefer that the Canadian embassy goes to the Chinese foreign ministry on one day and the Swedes show up the next day, and so on. But based on my past experience in the embassy, when we were able to get multilateral action with several countries jointly addressing the Chinese government, that was much more effective in receiving a response than country by country by country.

Certainly, Nathan Law here has mentioned that a number of countries endorsed the Sino-British joint declaration, which was what China and the British had hoped for, to get various countries to make a statement that they agreed with this process. I think our natural focus would be that the other countries that endorsed the Sino-British declaration would set up some kind of plurilateral mechanism where we could be hearing collectively from civil society and other actors in Hong Kong about the specifics of allegations that this agreement is not being maintained according to the international law, and we could therefore make effective representations to the Government of China. These representations would be made publicly so that the Chinese government would realize that what they are doing is causing the prestige of that government to be damaged because of this matter.

If we do nothing and take the attitude that China is a very large country, Hong Kong is a small place, and our interest is in keeping the Chinese Communist regime happy so that it won't interfere with our trade, that would be exactly what the Chinese government would hope would happen, that we would simply sacrifice Hong Kong to the greater good to Canada of other aspects in the relationship with China.

I would argue that this sort of irresponsible non-response by us would have the opposite effect, because we would lose respect from the Government of China. We could expect them to be pushing the envelope more in areas of concern to us, such as the consular case of Kevin Garratt, cyber-espionage in Canada, and unfair trade arrangements that do concern us now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks, Mr. Burton.

I have to cut you off here. We're over time.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Chair, I just want to make one comment before I go.

It is unprecedented at this committee that we've had any foreign government make representation about our activities. It was shocking for me, as a vice-chair of this committee, that we received a letter from the Chinese embassy asking us to basically halt our work here.

I think that is worthy of repeating.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Trottier, the floor is yours, sir, for seven minutes.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dewar, for your intervention.

Most of all, thank you to our guests today for being here. It's very important that your message be heard, and not just by this committee; this really represents a platform for the world. In our open democracy, everything here will be captured. Your testimony will be heard by many Canadians and other people around the world.

I just wanted to comment that there are certain things we do as parliamentarians and as members of the government. Our government and other democracies around the world have made official statements. We make declarations in our Parliament. We pass motions. We undertake studies. I hear the message from many witnesses that the Chinese government does recognize these things that get done, that are said. But there is a perception that China just plows ahead. It just keeps doing what it's doing.

Maybe I'll start with you, Ms. Eu. What are some of the real impacts and changes that these statements, these declarations, these motions, these studies might have on the Chinese government's behaviour?

[Audrey Eu]

First of all, I want to add to what Nathan just said. In a study done by Freedom House, Hong Kong's press freedom dropped to 83. The description now is “partially free”. As well, in my speaking notes I quoted from what the Hong Kong Journalists Association wrote at the beginning of their report.

To answer your question, which is that China seems to disregard what everybody has said and just soldiers forth, I think every voice actually adds up. There will come a time when China can't stand alone if the whole international community is really talking about upholding universal values. China, of course, in pushing forward our election system at the moment, thinks that this is the Chinese way of election. We want to stress that there are universal standards, even though there are no universal models, for election. There are certain universal standards. So even if the international community, which Canada is part of, comes out in unison and says that a particular proposal on the table does not meet with international standards, it's important for China. China wants to be seen as a world power, wants to be seen like everybody else.

It's also important for people in Hong Kong. As I said, just less than half think “There's nothing we can do. Nobody will help us. We just have to pocket whatever is given us.” If the international community comes forward and says that Hong Kong is part of the international community, and it's everybody's duty to uphold international standards, that will be an important message for the Hong Kong people as well.

As I said, I think every voice adds up. Don't give up or don't stop just because you think China is not listening.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]...perceived actions are taken by the Chinese government in reaction to these official statements and motions and things that various parliaments and various governments do around the world?

[Dr. Charles Burton]

It's not entirely without some response. At various times the Dalai Lama comes to Canada and meets with our Prime Minister, for example, I think most recently in 2012. There will be statements by the Chinese embassy that promise dire consequences for our relations if our Prime Minister meets with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. But once the Dalai Lama flies away from Canada, it seems the matter is not raised anymore.

I mean, it's clear that China has serious economic interests in Canada, in the energy and mineral sector, and that these political issues will not damage the overall Chinese interest in getting what Canada has to offer as a stable supplier of energy and minerals products. I think a lot of it is rhetoric designed to try to cow the Government of Canada into not speaking out on our concerns over allegations of serious human rights abuses in China.

Up to now, I don't think any relationship has been established between Canadian statements and our economic or other interests in China. I actually did a study of this, looking at the statistics to see, for example, if we were doing better with China on trade under the Chrétien period of quiet diplomacy on human rights, and I could not find any relationship. In fact, our market share in China increased under Mr. Harper after he made his statements about not selling out our values to the almighty dollar.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

The reality is that we have a massive trade imbalance with China anyway, so if someone's going to suffer from a degrading trade relationship, it would be more China than Canada, in many ways.

My next question is for our student witnesses. The textbook of how to build a communist revolution is that you seize the military, then the radio stations, and finally you seize the schools.

What is happening in the schools, the bastions of independent thinking and information? Has there been any tightening of academic freedom in Hong Kong in the last two years?

[Kwun Chung Law]

Thank you for the question.

In terms of academic freedom, there's no very strong interference but some concrete evidence proving that there really is some force from mainland China to interrupt in university affairs. There are rumours and signs that the Communist party wants to have something done at the university level. For instance, there are a lot of university councils, and the university council chairmen have been replaced by some of the fellows of C.Y. Leung, the current Chief Executive, who typically is kind of a partner with the Communist party.

These kinds of appointments show signs of initiative from the Communist party to interrupt in academic freedom and university affairs.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

What about you, Mr. Wong, can you comment on that—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have. We'll have to come back maybe in the next round.

We're going to Mr. Garneau for seven minutes, please.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your very eloquent presentations this morning, and passionate, if I may say. Certainly, watching the Umbrella Revolution I've seen a great deal of passion. Like most Canadians, I've watched it on television and I've read about it. I'd like to dig down a little deeper, if I may.

Madam Eu, perhaps I may start with something you said, because it was my first question. It was to know what public opinion across the spectrum of Hong Kong society might be. You said that somewhat less than half feel that it's a hopeless cause and are sort of resigned, if I can put it that way. Or that's how I interpreted it. You said that 40% said, “Over my dead body.”

For the first group, those who you consider to be people who are resigned to China imposing its will, I was wondering if you might break that down a little more. Is it resignation and they would much rather be able to have control over how the election is done? Or are there some Hong Kong residents who are actually squarely on the side of China?