Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 10th, 2013

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's very kind of you.

All I would add is that all of the conditions under section 6 anticipate that Canadian Forces are in a situation in which we are potentially aiding, abetting, counselling, or conspiring. All of these actions take place in that same theatre, and surely all we have to do is turn them around and say that the efforts we make initially are to persuade people that cluster munitions should not be used and there is an alternative.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

If there's no more discussion, then I'm going to call the question on Green Party 6.

(Amendment negatived: 6 nays; 5 yeas)

Now we need to vote on clause 11 as amended.

(Clause 11 as amended agreed to: 6 yeas; 5 nays)

We're now going to go to proposed new clause 22.1, and Liberal-7 and Liberal-8.

Do you want to present them both, Mr. Garneau? Let us know what you—

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I'll withdraw Liberal-7, because I've reintroduced it as Liberal 8 with one additional small clause.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Do we have unanimous consent to withdraw that?

[A voice]

He doesn't need that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay. Go ahead with number 8, then.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you, sir. The purpose of amendment LIB-8 is to be compliant with one of the requirements of the convention, which is that we are supposed to not only undertake to do or not to do certain things with respect to cluster munitions, but we're also required to proactively try to discourage the use of cluster munitions by our allies and others who still have not signed on to the convention, particularly to:

(a) encourage states not party to the Convention to ratify, accept, approve, or accede to the Convention; (b) notify the governments of all states not party to the Convention of Canada’s obligations under the Convention; (c) promote the norms the Convention establishes; and (d) discourage states not party to the Convention from using cluster munitions.

These are implicit requirements. We have all agreed that these are ugly, nasty weapons, that we don't want to use them, and we don't intend to use them when we're in single operations. At the same time, we also all agree that we should make an active effort to discourage other countries from doing it, yet there didn't seem to be a mechanism within Bill C-6 to provide for that engagement by Canada as a country.

When I spoke about this amendment last time, we got some expert advice from the clerk's office that you cannot, in a sense, obligate the minister to comply, and so we added a final subclause 22.1(2), “(2) For greater certainty, a failure by the Minister of Foreign Affairs to comply with subsection (1) is not an offence”—just to make it very clear—“and, accordingly, the Criminal Code does not apply.”

We would not want to make the minister a criminal if he did not report annually to Parliament, so that was essentially the amendment we brought in to our amendment. Essentially it addresses the issue of reporting to Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Are there any comments?

Mr. Anderson.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I'm going to ask Mr. Garneau if he would consider withdrawing the amendment because we'd like to provide him with an option. We had a bit of a discussion about this, so hopefully we can reach agreement.

The convention already requires state parties to file annual reports and so we have been doing that and we're willing to do that. We're offering the opposition that we would be willing to strengthen those reports, if you want to call it that, or put a little more work into them and bring them to the committee here and allow committee members to call officials or call the minister if they chose to come to the committee. We would do an annual report focused on issues of such things as stockpiling, reporting on activities related to unexploded ordnance that we have in the country, advocacy efforts in general and, more specifically, Canadian advocacy efforts as well in dealing with this issue.

That's the offer we're making to them. If the opposition would like to make that into a report to Parliament we're comfortable with that.

I just joined this committee recently, but it looks as if it has done a good job of putting reports together on some of these smaller subjects, if you want to call them that, and being able to present them to Parliament. You just did that yesterday.

That's what we're offering. Rather than making this part of the legislative package, we'll make a government commitment to annual reports dealing with the issues I have talked about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Garneau, have you any comments or thoughts?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Yes, based on Mr. Anderson's comments, that is something that would go a long way to satisfy the requirement to let Canadians know through this committee what advocacy work—advocacy is really what I'm most concerned about because we've already committed to disposing of our stockpile, but it's hearing from the minister, bearing in mind that if Parliament dissolves these annual things go away. They have to be reintroduced, so I'm a little concerned that we'll have to get into a pattern of reintroducing this motion every once in a while, but if you're telling me that the minister would be willing, at our invitation, to come to this committee to tell us what progress we are making, particularly on the advocacy side, that would be well received.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I can't commit his attendance, but I can certainly commit to the fact that the committee has the right to invite him, and we'll certainly take that invitation forward as we do with every other invitation. We will be committed to filing the annual report on the general topics we have talked about here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I just want some clarification on what the government's committing to and under what guise.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

We're required already to submit annual reports, particularly around the stockpiling. We're suggesting that we expand those reports. The committee can make them into what it would choose to make them into, I guess, but we'd cover the advocacy and be as specific as we want or as general as we want on that, and also cover any related activities. This is a bit on stockpiling as well as unexploded ordnances, and how we're handling those.

We've talked about the issue of transfer for destruction and those kinds of things. We would certainly be willing to have the committee explore those things.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Just to clarify, Chair, I'm hearing Mr. Anderson saying that the government would be willing to have this come before committee. I have nothing against the commitment that was made, but the committee can do that anyhow, so I'm just wondering what we're getting.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

What I'm asking is whether you want to be actively involved in the annual report or you want to get a report. We are willing to work with the committee in order to file a report.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But you are the committee. This is all in goodwill. I'm just trying to understand. You're withdrawing that motion, and replacing it with one that says the government will commit to having the report come to committee so we can study it.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Sure, and we can actually have the committee participate if you want that. If you just want the reports...the reports right now deal with stockpiling. I guess what I'm talking about is the committee taking that report, calling witnesses if they choose to, taking a look at the issue, and then filing a report that can be tabled in the House of Commons if you choose to do that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I would ask for indulgence. If we could have the motion to that effect pass through the committee when we come back so we could have some evidence on it, that would be great.

I thank the parliamentary secretary.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

My word is good, but we will do that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Your word is great. It's just the next guy who comes along.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Garneau.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

We don't doubt you, David, but we don't know about Deepak though...so....

[Voices]

Oh, oh!