Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 31st, 2022

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, based on my understanding, there was a consensus to adopt Ms. McPherson's sub-amendment, which focuses on three things: maintaining the idea of summoning Mr. Rae, even if that happens a little later, given the circumstances; include the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, obviously; and not to decide right away that the meetings will be in camera.

If that is the case, I am in favour, it goes without saying.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

Ms. McPherson, you are receiving additional support for your subamendment.

I will now give the floor to Monsieur Ehsassi.

Please go ahead.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It has been a great honour to be on this committee. This is my first introduction to the foreign affairs committee, and I must say it has been a topsy-turvy procedural process, given everyone's interest in making sure we can move forward.

In the interest of addressing everyone's concerns, perhaps we could square some of the differences that have arisen.

Firstly, allow me to thank Ms. Bendayan for rightly highlighting how urgent the issue of Ukraine is. I also want to thank Ms. McPherson for appreciating that and wanting to see us move forward.

However, at this particular juncture we're stuck at a sequencing issue, because as Mr. Chong rightly pointed out, it's about whether we go with the term “replace” or “add”. This is the thing that is getting in the way of this committee coming together, being focused on issues that are of concern to Canadians and moving forward.

It would seem to me that the better approach would be to have those briefings to hear what our government is doing with respect to Ukraine right now, because what Canadians want to see is concrete action.

At this current juncture, the world is concerned about deterring the possibility of an invasion happening. That's why our Minister of Foreign Affairs has been in Ukraine. Our Minister of National Defence will be heading there shortly.

If we focus on these briefings and what the Canadian government has done or should be doing in short order, and then subsequently hear from Ambassador Rae, that would make more sense. You will recall that Ms. McPherson was talking about how this is an evolving situation. What that suggests is that at this point, both intellectually and insofar as Canadians are concerned, we want to see what's being done, what more needs to be done, and then subsequently—God forbid, if things do not go as intended—it gets into the diplomatic arena, because it's a threat to international peace and security. It would make more sense to hear from Ambassador Rae at that particular point.

All that would be required to make sure that everyone is happy—first of all Ms. Bendayan, then Ms. McPherson and Mr. Chong—is to inquire whether Ms. McPherson would agree to hear from Mr. Rae at the end of the process, rather than somewhere in between.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ehsassi.

In the last four, five or six interventions, we have made progress. We're getting close to—I don't want to call it an agreement—the direction supporting Ms. McPherson's motion.

Are there additional points waiting to be brought forward? I'm optimistically going to think we can bring this to a vote before we finish, and potentially even talk about some other things.

Mr. Oliphant, you have your hand up. If anybody on the floor wishes to come in, please let the clerk's colleagues know so I have that information as well.

Mr. Oliphant, the floor is yours.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I think we're there. I think we have reached a good point.

What I wanted to clarify is that we would vote on the subamendment, then we would vote on the amendment, and then we would come to the full report. I have one comment I would like to make on the original subcommittee report, but because we got into an amendment and then a subamendment, I haven't yet had a chance to do that.

Sometimes we go quickly, and we wouldn't get back to that very basic point. I'm not against the report from the subcommittee, but I want to get some clarification on what that was about. I want to make sure we're all on the same page.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

I'm going to ask again if there are any additional interventions on the subamendment on the floor that has been brought forward by Ms. McPherson and discussed by members, with the support of the clerk and analysts.

Is there any opposition to the subamendment as currently framed by Ms. McPherson? I want to see if we can do this quickly by consensus. If there is, then we can go to a vote.

(Subamendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Mr. Chong, you have your hand raised. Go ahead, please.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to move the following subamendment: That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) the foreign affairs and international development committee undertake a study on the escalating situation in the Taiwan Strait that risks peace and security in the region; and that the committee hold a minimum of four—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Just wait one second, Mr. Chong. We'll go right back to you. I have a point of order.

Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I don't think I will be against this, but just in terms of order, it would seem to me that it is an amendment to the subcommittee report as opposed to an amendment to Ms. Bendayan's amendment. It just seems to me it would be better form if we got through that one and then added yet another piece to the subcommittee report, in terms of agenda. It would seem to me we're now mixing Taiwan with Ukraine. It seems to me that's going to get confusing, because it is a subamendment to the amendment on Ukraine. I would ask if the chair would consider moving to the amendment and then entertaining Mr. Chong's further amendment to the subcommittee report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

I'm getting a quick thumbs-up from Mr. Chong.

That was a helpful intervention, Mr. Oliphant.

Is that okay with you, Mr. Chong? Okay. That's perfect.

Colleagues, we've passed the subamendment. That takes us back to Madame Bendayan's amendment as amended, which we will now bring to a vote unless there are additional views.

Are there any additional views on Madame Bendayan's amendment as amended? I see none.

(Amendment as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

That means we have passed Madame Bendayan's amendment unanimously. Congratulations, Madame Bendayan.

That now takes us back to the original motion.

Mr. Chong, I will give you the floor.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I move the following amendment to the motion, that the following be added to the report:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the foreign affairs and international development committee undertake a study of the escalating situation in the Taiwan Strait that risks peace and security in the region; and that the committee hold a minimum of four meetings on this study, including three meetings to hear from witnesses and one meeting to receive briefings from government officials concerning the situation.

Mr. Chair, I move this amendment to the report because I believe it's complementary to the study on Ukraine. We have a situation in which two authoritarian governments, two authoritarian states, are threatening peaceful democratic neighbours in the region. I think both situations have been unfolding now for some time. I think that doing the study of both Ukraine and Taiwan for the next several weeks would be of utility to the committee, to Canadians, and to understanding what is going on in the world. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Chong, thank you very much.

There is an amendment on the floor that colleagues have heard. It's been read out in full.

I have an intervention from Ms. McPherson, who had her hand raised, and from Madame Bendayan.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

No, I've withdrawn my hand. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

All right.

Ms. Bendayan, you have the floor.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to thank Mr. Chong for bringing this forward and for his leadership on this issue for some time now.

I also would like to refer to my own motion, which suggested a study on Taiwan, Hong Kong, and the very troubling situation of the Uighur people. I also would like, simply, to raise for the consideration of this committee a number of other issues.

I'm thinking in particular of our friends in Haiti. Many Quebec men and women are concerned about the situation. I therefore also propose that the committee take on the responsibility of studying the situation in Haiti.

I would also like to raise Ethiopia; I believe that a number of people, including Mr. Oliphant and Ms. McPherson, at various times over the course of the last meeting and this one, have raised the importance of vaccine equity.

I do support the motion put forward by Mr. Chong. I do wish very much to study Taiwan. I would just suggest that perhaps we can include one or more other aspects into this study, perhaps simultaneously, as this committee appears to be open to doing for other issues, including the one that was just discussed.

Thank you very much once again, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Ms. Bendayan.

Are you then amending Mr. Chong's amendment, which would take us back to a subamendment by adding...? Or is this simply a thought for the committee for further discussion in the future on Haiti, Ethiopia and the cases that you raise?

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Given the importance of this particular issue, I'm not proposing an immediate amendment. What I am proposing is that we perhaps have an open discussion as a committee on what study we may wish to do simultaneously with this study that Mr. Chong has put forward. It seems that the committee is open to doing that in other situations. We may wish, possibly, to study other issues at the same time as the one put forward by Mr. Chong, but I would like to express my unequivocal support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Madame Bendayan.

Time permitting, before we close today, maybe we can circle briefly to the analysts and the clerk just to give us a bit of an overview in terms of capacity in the very short term and the intermediate term for additional studies as we contemplate them.

I now yield the floor to Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to echo what Ms. Bendayan just said.

I fully agree with the proposal put forward by Mr. Chong. However, I believe that there are also other situations that are extremely concerning. I am thinking in particular of Haiti and Ethiopia. It will be up to us to decide whether we want a briefing on these other situations of concern from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development. This is a formula that we have used in the past. After that, we can decide to go further, if necessary. I think it is important to schedule at least one briefing on the situation in Haiti and Ethiopia, if only to fill in the gaps that may exist here and there in the organization of other work. Of course, we keep open the possibility of going further, if necessary.

I would also like to come back to the consensus we reached in the subcommittee on December 22, that it might be appropriate to schedule two meetings to hear from each of our two ministers in relation to their mandate letters. This would allow us to discuss the priorities that the Prime Minister has set for them and to see how we can support them in fulfilling the mandates given to them by the Prime Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

Before I go to Dr. Fry and Ms. McPherson, maybe I can ask for some thought to be given to the number of meetings that we would have to receive briefings in light of the work that the committee is currently contemplating.

If the clerk and analysts can give us some quick thoughts on that and maybe let us know by the end of the session, with just a thumbnail sketch, for between now and the time Parliament will rise, let's say, on how many briefing sessions we would be able to put in, in addition to the work that's already been put forward, I think there is always that flexibility. It's always good practice for this committee to stay informed about the most current events. It should be doable to add briefings for Haiti, Ethiopia and other files as the committee sees fit. Hopefully, we'll circle back on that discussion briefly before closing.

I now give the floor to Dr. Fry and then to Ms. McPherson.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Chair, I want to clarify again.

Are we still discussing Mr. Chong's amendment that's on the floor?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

That is correct.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Then I would like to speak to Mr. Chong's amendment.

I think I can support it fully, because I do believe there are very great similarities. If Russia should succeed in moving its 100,000 troops on the border of Ukraine into Ukraine, then that says to China that they can do whatever they want to do with Taiwan, because the rest of the world does not have any power or any teeth to do anything about that kind of aggressive behaviour. I am very much in support of that. I think it's an urgent piece to look at. I don't think we should delay too long in looking at that. The two are in some ways linked from a political point of view for either China or Russia, so I want to support it. I want to support that it be urgent, but not precluding or not being more urgent than Ukraine, which I think is actually in a state of what I would consider to be the closest we've been to a world war since World War II. Europe is very concerned about all of this.

I think it's really important we do Ukraine first, that it's urgent, that we deal with it, and that we also then look at Mr. Chong's amendment as being extremely urgent from also that kind of perspective.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Dr. Fry.

Ms. McPherson.