Foreign Affairs Committee on March 28th, 2023

[Robert Rae]

There are a lot of genocidal elements to it. There's no question about that. There is their disrespect for culture, the disrespect for children, the abduction of children and the kidnapping case that the ICC is now taking. They're taking it as a separate war crime, but as you know, under the genocide convention, one definition of genocide is the deliberate intent to destroy the cultural life and the cultural vitality of a people's language and a people's way of life.

Ukrainian people have been through a lot, historically. I think we've all learned a great deal about the nature of—

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Ambassador. My time is so limited.

I want to touch a bit on food and fuel. Ukraine was such a breadbasket. My grandparents were all born there. That's my heritage. So many food-insecure nations depend on the trade from that region.

What more should Canada be doing with respect to fertilizer and fuel, etc., particularly for the food-insecure nations of the world and also for Europe?

[Robert Rae]

It takes time to build up the capacity, but we have an opportunity to do more. I believe that. I think the government is trying to find those opportunities in terms of our own production. However, I also think that we have been doing a lot behind the scenes to really support the Secretary-General and the work that he's being doing in trying to keep the port of Odessa open and trying to deal with the supply situation.

We now have to look at how long this war could go on and the impact that it's having on an ongoing basis. That's where I think we really do need to look hard at what the impacts are, particularly in Africa, and in parts of the Middle East and Asia, where the supply situation is extremely serious and where its ongoing impact on the economies of those countries is extremely deep.

We have to recognize that the continent of Africa, which includes so many countries, is a continent to which we're going to have to pay a lot of attention, simply by virtue of what the impacts of what has taken place in the past while have been on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.

We now go to Madam Bendayan.

You have four minutes.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, again, to you, sir, Mr. Ambassador, for returning to this committee. I would remind my colleagues that you were here in February of last year, and it's a pleasure to welcome you here again.

I would like to touch on something that occurred last night on Parliament Hill. We were able to meet with Masih Alinejad and Nazanin Boniadi, as well as others from the Alliance for Democracy and Freedom in Iran. We were, several members of the government and of the Senate, encouraged as parliamentarians to use the term “gender apartheid”. I noticed that you, Ambassador, used that very term here today before our committee.

Can you expand on the importance of using that term, and perhaps give us some sense of whether it is being used to an increasing extent at the United Nations and in other international fora?

[Robert Rae]

It's certainly being used by a number of people. I think that for reasons around the legal definitions one has to look at whether gender can be seen as part of it, because it's now identified in its legal definition as a racial term and not as a term that applies to gender. The reason I use it is that people understand instantly what it means. It's this attempt to impose an entirely misogynist ideology on countries to deny the rights of women on a systematic basis, which we see taking place in Afghanistan, we see taking place in Iran and we see taking place in other countries.

Quite frankly, the growth of these misogynist, authoritarian and patriarchal ideas is something we have to continue to fight against. Canada's very active in that fight. I was speaking at a conference where Masih Alinejad was speaking, and we had an opportunity to talk about these issues. I've met a lot with women from Iran as well as women from Afghanistan, and Canada's very active in leading this fight. I'm very proud of that.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Ambassador.

I, too, am proud of that. Thank you for leading the charge at the United Nations in representing us so well and in representing Canada's views with respect to what is happening in Iran.

I would be remiss if I didn't touch on the fact that only a few days ago President Biden came to Ottawa and made an address to Parliament. In his address, he concluded by saying that we have an incredible opportunity, and I'll quote him. He said:

...we have an incredible opportunity to work together so that Canada and the United States can source and supply, here in North America, everything we need for reliable and resilient supply chains.

...Canada and the United States can do big things and stand together, do them together, rise together. We are going to write the future together....

I don't want to touch, of course, on what will happen at 4 p.m. this afternoon, but do you get the sense in the United Nations that Canada and the United States are not only aligned with respect to economics but also aligned with respect to security concerns and also with respect to all manner and all aspects of our relationship? Do you get that sense today, in the halls that you are in, that Canada and the United States are very much aligned today, more than ever?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Ambassador, you have less than 30 seconds, please.

[Robert Rae]

We work very closely with the United States, but I want to emphasize that we work very closely with a number of countries. We also work very closely with a number of countries with which we are not always in entire agreement, but there's a need for us to work closely.

I think we work here in a very multilateral context as a middle power and a country that's so deeply dedicated to the principles of multilateralism and the rule of law. But of course the United States is a very important partner for us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have two minutes, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to begin by pointing out that I found the question from our NDP colleague particularly interesting given that you appear to have a variable-geometry vision of the defence and promotion of human rights, and also of whether or not you are authorized to comment publicly on a personal basis.

I'll repeat my question, Mr. Ambassador.

Would you say that secularism as practised in France, for example, has a discriminatory component and contravenes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

[Robert Rae]

I would say that the manner in which we defend pluralism and the fact that we are a multiracial and multicultural country is for me an important principle. You are entitled to your opinions Mr. Bergeron and the Government of Quebec has the right to take action in its fields of jurisdiction. It will be up to the courts to decide whether the position it is taking is constitutional. At the same time, I think you should accept the fact that many Canadians do not support this policy.

What I did was take a moment once again to defend the multiculturalism principle and the multiracial and pluralistic nature of Canada, because it's an important principle.

Is Canada Europe? No. Our experience is different. Canada is not precisely in the same position as other countries, and I accept that.

I also accept the principle according to which people have the right to practise their religion or to be of any faith while still serving the State. I don't agree with the idea that one should have to choose between one's religious identity and one's democratic identity. I think people can have both. I fully accept that we have the right to…

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Ambassador, I simply wish to point out that...

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron, you're out of time, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

... I fully agree with you about the fact that people can practise the religion of their choice and serve the State. What we're talking about here is simply the wearing of religious symbols in performing their duties.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron, you're out of time, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I believe that it's a point of view that can be defended and that deserves respect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron, you're out of time, sir.

Ms. McPherson, you have two minutes, please.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

Again, Ambassador, thank you very much for being with us today.

Ambassador Rae, I know that you've done quite a lot of work on disarmament, but in 2014 you were a member of this committee when it studied Canada's proposed cluster munitions legislation. Right now this committee is undertaking work where we are reviewing legislation that will be looking at similar pieces.

At that time, you expressed your opposition to section 11 of the act, which permits Canadian Forces members to order the use of cluster munitions weapons. You said this “stands in stark contradiction with the fact that Canada is opposed to the use of these bombs.”

I'm bringing forward an amendment to this bill that's before us that would fix, finally, the cluster munitions act in a section that you once said had a serious problem. Will your government be supporting this amendment? Do you know?

[Robert Rae]

I have no idea.

You know, I was in politics long enough in a previous life to know and appreciate what a gotcha question looks like, so congratulations. The problem with my life is that my every thought is in print. You will always find me having said something, and you can use it any way you like.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

To be fair, I review all the work that many of our great leaders have brought forward, so there you have it.

[Robert Rae]

It's all on the public record. You're certainly entitled to quote from it, but I'm not going to get into the middle of the current debate that's in front of the committee.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

This is on the public record from 2013. I'm just wondering whether your opinion has changed since then.

[Robert Rae]

I have not changed my mind since then, no. Personally, no, my mind has not been changed.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do you believe that by having cluster munitions, and by having this section 11 within the legislation, it actually puts our military personnel in a precarious ethical situation, where they are often asked, or they could be asked, to transport, to use or to be part of the practice of using cluster munitions?