Evidence of meeting #61 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was subamendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
The amendment is worthwhile, and I will vote for it if paragraph 6.1(c) is removed. I think the amendment has merit and you have done a good job. That said, in my opinion, paragraph 6.1(c) makes the amendment much worse.
If amendment CPC‑4.3 included only paragraphs 6.1(a) and 6.1(b), I would gladly vote for it, my friends.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
So I propose a subamendment, Mr. Chair.
I move to amend amendment CPC‑4.3 by deleting paragraph 6.1(c).
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
There's a subamendment on the floor.
Do we want to vote on the subamendment? Does anyone want to speak to it?
Yes, Mr. Anandasangaree, go ahead.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Going back to the original amendment, I think it's relevant to this, so I'd like to get clarity from experts here with respect to the difference between the original text, the proposal in CPC-4.3 and the proposal brought forward by Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, which is to delete paragraph (c).
If you could give us the difference in terms of the impact and effect on all three parts of this.... This is the original piece, CPC-4.3 as presented and amended, and CPC-4.3 with (c) deleted.
11:40 a.m.
Deputy Director, Non-Proliferation and Disarmament, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Thank you very much.
I'll address deleting (c) first. That would eliminate concerns about the question of “certain projects”.
Again, I would probably want to double-check with my colleagues over at the Department of National Defence, in case there are any concerns on their end about their ability to work with companies that produce cluster munitions. On potential research and development on items that are not cluster munitions, I would like to double-check that with them.
The one comment I would make about.... If the proposed language amending clause 6 was rejected, it would raise some concerns about the original language proposed in Bill C-281, which doesn't focus clearly on intent. We think it is an important element under criminal law to prove that people invested with purpose, knowingly. Otherwise, the way Bill C-281 is currently drafted puts criminal liability on people who merely know that they have an investment, and that can happen at any time. It doesn't require that they have the intent to invest in—
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, with respect to Ms. Milligan, we've already passed clause 6. I think it's fair that she restrict her comments to the amendment or subamendment that is currently on the floor.
11:40 a.m.
Deputy Director, Non-Proliferation and Disarmament, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I apologize. That's totally fair. I'm probably a bit lost on which ones are being moved and that sort of thing. I apologize.
I just want to—
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC
Mr. Chair, I don't think that the witness should have to apologize for informing the committee of relevant information.
11:40 a.m.
Deputy Director, Non-Proliferation and Disarmament, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Thank you.
Again, as I mentioned before, we viewed the section on aiding and abetting in the PCMA as covering the investments. Because I'm not a lawyer, it's difficult to comment on the addition of this text proposed by CPC-4.3 and whether that would have a conflict with the aiding and abetting part. I'm not sure if there would need to be some kind of reconciliation with that. I would defer to lawyers on that. However, I understand the intent to provide that clarity.
We also appreciate the concern of not wanting to capture investors who are just holding pension funds or mutual funds and may not know where their money is being directed. We think that's also a very important consideration. We want to make sure we capture only those people who intend to invest in cluster munitions, and we don't want to penalize those who have no control over where their money is going.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I'm wondering if we can get a response from the Department of National Defence.
11:45 a.m.
MGen Paul Prévost
Again, at the Department of National Defence, we have no concerns with the amendment. We think we can mitigate some of the language in here in the way our ADM of materiel is procuring.
Thank you.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you, Major-General.
Now, we'll go to the legislative clerk, who has identified another concern with the subamendment.
11:45 a.m.
Philippe Méla Legislative Clerk
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just want to point something out to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, with respect to your proposed subamendment, if you look at the English version of the amendment, at the end of 6.1(b) it says “or”.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
11:45 a.m.
Legislative Clerk
I'm talking about the subamendment you just proposed to remove paragraph 6.1(c).
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I don't have it in English; I have it only in French.
11:45 a.m.
Legislative Clerk
Okay. In the English version of the amendment, it says that this provision does not apply with respect to paragraphs 6.1(a), 6.1(b) “or” 6.1(c). So, if we take out paragraph 6.1(c), there will be nothing after the word “or”. So I just wanted to ask your permission to move that “or” to the end of paragraph 6.1(a) and make the necessary changes. It would then be 6.1(a) “or” 6.1(b).
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Yes, of course, you have my permission.
Thank you very much.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
That is now part of the subamendment. Okay, that's groovy.
Yes, Mr. Anandasangaree.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
I ask for a recorded vote on the subamendment.
(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you.
Now we go to the amendment itself, as amended.
Yes, Mr. Lawrence.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
I would first just like to thank the officials, particularly Ms. Milligan. I know she's working as best as she can. If I was in any way rude, I apologize.
I'd like to just move to a vote on this.