Foreign Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2024

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you very much for being here, Ambassador. I apologize for bringing that point of order up at the beginning of today's meeting, but as you've mentioned, the risk we see with some of the gaps in our arms control mechanisms within this country, is something we need to be aware of and need to be looking at. I'm going to ask you some questions about that, because like you, I have a lot of concerns when we see Canadian goods being used by Russia.

I visited Irpin and Kyiv in March last year. With your assistance, I met with the Soloma Cats, a group of young people. I met 16-year-olds who are literally using antennas to demine areas so that Ukrainians can go back to their communities. We all know that the organization The HALO Trust is doing really remarkable work there trying to demine so that Ukrainians can go back into their communities.

We also know that there are loopholes in our arms system that allow goods like detonators to go through Kyrgyzstan to end up in the mines that 16-year-olds are using antennas to demine in Ukraine. I'm appalled that these loopholes haven't been closed.

I'm wondering if you can talk a bit more about the impacts of Russia having access to over 100,000 detonators that were made in Canada and using them in Ukraine against the Ukrainian people.

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

First, we all need to realize that Russia cannot sustain its military production without western spare parts. The second thing is that, because that's their crucial need, they will try to find intermediaries in other countries in trying to circumvent the sanctions.

We also need to be quite realistic. They are becoming very creative. It's not only about the export ban and the decision to not issue the export permit. We also need to be quicker and smarter and have the co-operation of the industry to work in making pre-emptive measures. It's good that we can investigate the thing that happened, but it's already happened. That equipment is already in Russia, and it's not only about specifically using it in weapons production. As we saw with the Iranian drones, Russia copied the technology and now is able to produce its own. There is a long-lasting impact with this.

The second point is that it's not only about the physical export control as it is. There could be some technologies that are formally not under the sanctions and are not formally banned with the export control, but that are widely used in the Russian military machine. That's why the decision to extend this ban, not only for the military stuff but for a lot of technology that could be potentially used, is of great importance.

This should be the constant day-to-day work, and it should have enough resources, efforts and leadership for us to continue this fight. There isn't an easy, one-time solution to this. As soon as we figure out one thing, they will try to find another way. It is of strategic interest to all of us to deprive Russia of this ability and to protect technology from ending up in Russian hands.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

One thing you mentioned earlier is that this is not a new thing. This loophole has been allowing this to happen now for two years in Ukraine. This committee studied it in previous Parliaments. These loopholes exist and need to be closed, and the government has not done the work to close them. In fact, it continuously says that we have a rigorous arms regime when obviously we don't. We have a lot of loopholes that are not working, and we are not doing the work that needs to be done to make sure that's not happening.

From my perspective, It's very similar to our sanctions regime, where we add people to the sanctions regime as if there's no work that needs to be done after that. The actual execution and enforcement of those sanctions are where Canada often falls down.

I wonder if you could speak to how you feel right now about the fact that, while so many people have been sanctioned and there have been so many announcements on the seizure of goods, very little has been seized and nothing has been repurposed for Ukraine at this point.

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

I will add two different things. First is the sanctions themselves and their impact. The second thing is about the seizing of assets when it comes to the sovereign assets that are now being discussed among, first of all, the G7 countries and those countries holding the major portion of Russian sovereign assets. Canada is not among them. Russia withdrew their assets from Canada long before they started the full-scale invasion. That's an important dialogue. We value that Canada is supportive towards the seizing of Russian assets around the table with the other partners.

In terms of sanctions themselves, sanctions are working. Russia, through a lot of disinformation campaigns, is trying to spread the narrative that sanctions are not working. That's exactly the argument showing that they are hurting the Russian economy, whether they're for the military or aviation. One of the first sanctions done was the sanction towards Russian aviation. You see how the Russian fleets have been depleted. Many of the sanctions that are linked to technological access have influence as time passes. As the equipment gets older, there is nothing to replace it.

The Russian economy is degrading at a high speed, but they are trying to send a message in the media that the sanctions are not working, so the discussion about their efficiency will be raised. I think we need to be—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do you feel Canadian sanctions are working, though?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid that we are considerably over time, almost two minutes over time.

Thank you, Madam McPherson.

We'll go to the next round. For this round, it's three minutes each.

We start off with MP Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I want to correct the record. I misspoke earlier when I said that Canada had been producing 3,000 155-millimetre shells a day. What I meant to say was that Canada has been producing 3,000 155-millimetre shells a month. I wanted to correct the record on that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

We now go to Mr. Epp.

You have two minutes and 20 seconds.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I'll take it.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Your Excellency, for being here.

I'm also going to thank the clerks, the analysts and the Library of Parliament for the briefing notes. I was able to check the map that was provided, and the farms where my grandparents were born—of which I have small bits of evidence in my office at home—still lie behind Russian lines, so this is a deeply personal issue for me.

The Prime Minister was in Ukraine on the second anniversary and announced another $3.02 billion in support for the upcoming year. A press release also went out that it will bring the aid totals to $13 billion since 2022.

Can you confirm if the $3.02 billion announced is part of the $13 billion, or is that in addition to it?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

The biggest part of this is the loan to the Ukrainian budget, and we highly appreciate this loan.

I think Canada started to support Ukraine and the Ukrainian budget back in 2015. After Russia occupied Crimea, Canada provided the first loan to Ukraine to support the Ukrainian budget, and Ukraine paid back this loan, including the interest, even ahead of schedule in 2022. Now the biggest portion of support is the loans to the Ukrainian budget to help the country and help the millions of people who are suffering from the war, including the IDPs. The other part is the military support.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

In your opening comments, you talked about the delay in fulfilling some of the total support, and you also talked about the western approach as being drop by drop.

I'm going to explore a bit Canada's obligation. I have several questions, and I'll let you use the remaining time.

Are there any penalties for non-fulfilment on our part, from the agreements?

Second, we announced agreements for 50 Canadian-made armoured vehicles in September 2023, for NASAMS—surface-to-air missiles—in January and for assault rifles in November 2022. Also, winter clothes were announced last year. My understanding is that they have still not arrived.

Can you comment on that? To what extent are these delays in fulfilling our commitments hurting the efforts?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

This is probably the situation we face with many of the partners. If you ask at what time we need many of those packages of support, the first answer you will hear in Ukraine is “yesterday” or even “the day before yesterday”. The time is pressing, but sometimes the restraints are coming from the producers and their ability to produce the equipment. Most of that is newly produced equipment here in Canada that's creating new jobs, but still, it takes time.

Specifically, as of now, I don't have the information for you on what specific equipment that was committed to has been delivered or not. Of course, my team is in constant dialogue with DND, because timing is of great importance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We'll go next to Mr. Oliphant.

You have three minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Your Excellency. It's good to see you again.

The first thing I want to say, as just a reminder and reiteration, is that Canada believes this war will end, but it will end on Ukraine's terms. I think all G7 leaders have said that. I think Canadians of Ukrainian background and Canadians not of Ukrainian background stand united on that, and I hope that this will not be a divisive issue ever in this Parliament.

The second thing I want to know is, how are you?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

I think that's the most complicated question I'm getting personally. Usually, it's a question from people who are being polite.

You can't say that you're okay when over two years, every day.... I think the most scary thing for me personally is to wake up in the morning and read the news. Each time, somebody very close to you can be there. In my family, people have died on the front lines.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

We will stand with you and with your family as well.

I also want to thank you for your part in the Canada-Ukraine strategic security partnership. This is significant. This is for 10 years. You had a role in it. Personally, the embassy had a role in it. Our two governments had a role in it. I don't think we take credit for it. I share credit with you, because I think this is incredibly important. That slightly more than $3 billion for 2024 is real, and it is a continuation of our commitment since 2015.

I have a question for you. Canada's commitment is unwavering. I believe that Canadians' commitment is unwavering and, despite the political games we play, I believe the opposition's commitment is unwavering. I may get in trouble for saying that, but I really believe it. We only get ahead if we do that and don't play games with this.

Can you tell us if there's a role for Canada with other players in the world, other allies of ours, with near friends, far friends, the global south and others? Is there anything Canada can do to shore up Ukraine's war efforts?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

First of all, let me also thank you for the agreement and the negotiations we had in such a short time with the amazing team at Global Affairs, which was led by Heidi Hulan and had participants from other departments. That was incredibly amazing work the team did here, but also in Kyiv, by the way. One part of the negotiations was in Kyiv.

Not only was it very symbolic to have this agreement signed in Kyiv, but it was on the same day that Russia started the invasion. It was signed on February 24. Together, Canada and Italy did that. Canada was the first, and the country that now leads the G7 and the country that will lead the G7 next year were standing together with President Ursula von der Leyen. It was an important message to Putin that we're all united.

In terms of the support with other partners, indeed, our teams are working, whether it's with the UN, the UAC or the other international platforms. I think the important part of the world where we need to enhance the explanation—it's probably a different argument for each specific country—is the global south. That's where we can join the efforts further, whether it's about the coalition for bringing home Ukrainian children, ensuring food security or ecocides and the crimes against the environment that Russia is committing, including blowing up the Kakhovka water dam last year.

There are many angles and arguments we can bring to countries, including those from the global south. That's where I think we can further work together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have a minute and a half, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much.

I thank you, Your Excellency.

Le Devoir, a newspaper, estimated that Canada has yet to deliver on nearly 60% of its promises. I know that you are infinitely grateful to Canada for everything that has been done so far, and I don't want to put you in a position that gives the impression that you want to criticize the Canadian government. However, in reality, your troops need weapons.

What is the status of the deliveries? What information are you getting from the Canadian government about upcoming deliveries? I'm thinking, for one, about the announcement by the Minister of National Defence regarding a donation of 800 drones from Teledyne FLIR, a company based in Waterloo, Ontario.

What's the status of these arms deliveries?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

I think it's quite transparent in all democracies, and the list of equipment that was committed to be supplied to Ukraine and what was delivered are on the website of DND.

I'm not in a position now to comment in percentage terms but on each specific case. You probably mean the 800 drones. As we understand it, they will be delivered later in the spring, but even if it's in three months, that would be a good time. If it's another 12 or 18 months, that would be a challenging time. We are pretty confident that they will come sooner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

We now go to Madam McPherson.

You have a minute and a half.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Your Excellency, that was a question about the speed at which goods are getting to Ukraine from the Canadian government.

I have two questions for you.

First of all, do you feel that they are coming in a timely manner, and what are the costs when they aren't being delivered in a timely manner? We know that the air defence system has been promised, but there's no timeline on that.

The other question I have for you is about this committee. We would very much like to come to Ukraine. We would like to show our solidarity and our support for you. Can you talk a bit about what it would mean to Ukrainians if the Canadian foreign affairs committee were to visit Ukraine?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

Of course, this is the biggest war that's happened on the European continent since the Second World War. This war has so many dimensions on the military side and with the impact on civilians, on the global energy sector, on global food security and on the environment.

There is no better way to learn and feel all the consequences of the war coming to Ukraine than visiting not only Kyiv but other places, just to understand what is in the minds of people. An example is putting 150 people in a basement and keeping them there for over a month with no food and no water. That's what Russian soldiers did just an hour's drive from Kyiv in the village of Yahidne, which was visited by the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

I think it's important, and we welcome it. We have a lot of delegations from many parliaments from all of the continents, and of course we would welcome the delegation of Canadian members of Parliament to Ukraine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Madam Ambassador.

That concludes our questions. We're grateful for your generous commitment of time. Thank you for your fulsome responses.

I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you if there were any concluding remarks you would like to make before we adjourn this meeting.

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

First of all, thank you. Thank you for being with Ukraine for 10 years, because the war started 10 years ago. If we look back at what happened during those 10 years, Russia strategically lost global security. Russia is no longer a G8 member—it's now G7—and that was done with the significant role that Canada played in that.

While preparing for the full-scale invasion, it was easier because over 30,000 Ukrainian troops at that time were trained. Canada stepped in and is supporting us.

The agreement that was signed in Kyiv, our strategic security co-operation agreement, is today laying the groundwork in different spheres. Many of those we haven't covered today, but one is cybersecurity. It is the issue of the security of countries that do not have borders and do not have distance. We are a country that has suffered a lot. We withstand a lot of Russian cyber-attacks, and there are a lot of other things in this agreement that we will share as well.

We believe that it's a mutually beneficial co-operation that will enhance the security of both of our countries.

Thank you.