Evidence of meeting #34 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ensure.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
Thank you.
Let me remind you, though, that there was Bill C-11, and there were three of us here who were at this table when it was passed. As far as I know, it has not even received royal assent yet. Or has it? But that was setting up the independent office for whistle-blowing, and I haven't seen any movement on that one either. I understand that Bill C-2 came after the fact, but I think there could have been considerable work done on that.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I raise a point of order.
I just wanted to point out that Bill C-11 has been radically changed and toughened, and as a result—
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
—there's a new instrument brought into effect by the Federal Accountability Act—
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
—and it was just passed and came into effect recently.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
I was trying to set the record straight. There's a limit to how much BS I'm going to listen to here.
Mr. Simard.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Thank you very much, Madame Chair.
Minister, I appreciate the fact that you want to ensure that there be accountability and transparency. And if ever there was contempt of Parliament, it's the fact that you would appoint all these Governor in Council appointments prior to bringing in this new commission. It just seems to me that the law was passed. In fact, Bill C-2 was passed on December 12. A substantial amount of time has passed since that time, and we did have an opportunity to put in place some of these programs. So it seems to me that there is a contempt of Parliament that is out there.
I would also like to come back to the Court Challenges Program.
4:45 p.m.
President of the Treasury Board
Are you asking me if I agree with you that it was a contempt of Parliament?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
You probably do. I would think that by your silence you agree with me.
4:45 p.m.
President of the Treasury Board
I don't agree. I can explain exactly why I think everything was done in an appropriate fashion. Indeed, had there not been this inordinate delay in the Senate, the concerns you're expressing could have been addressed in an appropriate fashion much earlier.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
But it seems to me, Minister, that if you were that concerned with transparency and accountability, you would have wanted to ensure that these appointments were done with the new accountability act in place, with some of these measures in place, and not appoint 150 or 175 people prior to putting in these new dispositions. It seems to me that would be a fair expectation for members of Parliament to expect of you.
4:45 p.m.
President of the Treasury Board
There are certain things, for example, for which we simply couldn't wait for the act to be passed--and the act might never have passed. So I'm prepared to simply say, look, the act is done. We can start off on a new foot. We can work together, and I'm looking to you and your cooperation in terms of ensuring that we get the best people in place to fill these positions now that this system is in place.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
With regard to the procurement ombudsman, I'm wondering what kind of authority that person would have.
One of the major concerns members of Parliament would have, or the Canadian public would have, actually, is political interference. I'm just wondering what kind of authority the ombudsman would have in cases where there may be political interference. Would he or she be able to intervene at the ministerial level? I know we're discussing interference right now with the whole heavy-lift equipment, where the work would go and all that, so—
4:45 p.m.
President of the Treasury Board
I don't want to get into that specifically. We were pleased to see that the contract was announced. We think it was a good deal for Canadians.
4:45 p.m.
President of the Treasury Board
Generally speaking, I would think that a minister who would interfere with an ombudsman would do so at his or her own peril. It would just be—
4:50 p.m.
President of the Treasury Board
What...that the ombudsman would interfere with the minister?
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
President of the Treasury Board
But that's done every day, and appropriately so. The ombudsman in fact has a role to appropriately intervene and ask questions and try to resolve certain things, whether we're talking about an ombudsman or an auditor general, who obviously performs a different type of a role. They all intervene.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Yes. There is a distinction, though. I'm just trying to understand what the ombudsman's role would be in this case.
4:50 p.m.
President of the Treasury Board
Well, the role is to ensure that if there are concerns about a particular contracting process, those.... I don't think it's good enough to always say that the rules were followed exactly. If you follow the rules exactly, as a small business person, I will never access these contracts. That is an issue, then. An ombudsman would be able to say yes, the rules were followed, but the problem is that the rules operate unfairly with respect to these small businesses.
In that sense, they advocate for changes, or at least indicate that a change may be necessary. As I understand it, an ombudsman never has the actual power to order the change, but certainly to identify the problem and make recommendations. That's how I see the role of an ombudsman. I'd have to—