Evidence of meeting #43 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was secretariat.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
He is a public servant. He may answer if he wishes to do so, but I think the question is rather sensitive.
4:15 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
Madam Chair, I believe you have answered the question, but I would like to add that the secretariat was made up of public servants. We are proud to be in a position to support the Government of Canada, regardless of the party in power. We were asked to help the commission to define their code of practice. We were never part of the appointment process. Even when I was a deputy minister, all I did was to provide the minister with the names of competent individuals. It was then up to the minister and colleagues to move the process forward. We were expected to be politically neutral, and that is something of which I am proud.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Mr. Harrison.
Perhaps we'll follow up from where Mr. Poilievre left off. Specifically, I'll be asking questions relating to the Immigration and Refugee Board and the appointments made therein.
Certainly one of the things you looked at was ensuring that on the list of the appointees was the right combination of knowledge, background, experience, and required competency to perform the functions of an IRB member. One of the ways of testing that competency was through written examinations. If I'm correct, one of your recommendations was to set and apply a pass mark to the examinations to ensure that the candidates met a minimum standard of adequacy, if you want to call it that. Is that correct?
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
That is correct.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Further to that, in your consideration and opinion in your report, that was really beefing up the system as it existed in the past. First of all, was there an examination or a written test of the applicants in the previous appointment process, prior to your recommendation?
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
Thank you.
Madam Chair, we reviewed the process that was in place at that point in time. In that process, there was--and still is, I understand--an examination.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
I've read through your report. You've indicated that the examination itself has some appropriate questions to test competencies, but you took issue with the fact that people who were referred to the advisory panel and ultimately to the selection board didn't necessarily receive a pass mark. Is that correct?
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
That is correct.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
One of the questions that you had is if you didn't have to receive the pass mark, why have the test at all in the first place?
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
Madam Chair, I think it can lead to several different questions. We were using the existing guidelines from the Immigration and Refugee Board, which already set a pass mark.
Our recommendation was very simple: if there is a pass mark in place, then it should be applied. Otherwise, there are questions about whether the pass mark should be lower. Should it be a different exam? We were not in a position to do that. We did have Sussex Circle, a group of people who are really experienced in these things, review the process and particularly look at the exam. But you are correct, the recommendation was to set a passing mark for the written exam and exclude from further consideration those who fail.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
So I gather from the data you were able to obtain that there was a considerable number of applicants, if you want to call them that, referred to the advisory board who were somewhat below that standard. Is that correct?
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
That is correct, Madam Chair.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
And as a consequence, there was a considerable process of re-selection at the advisory board that wasn't necessarily objectively based, in the same sense that the testing would have provided.
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
That, Madam Chair, is drawing a conclusion. What we did was look at the facts that were provided by the officials at the Immigration and Refugee Board, and we found at that point in time that 28% of the people who went on to the next step had not met the minimum requirements. That is our observation.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
In fact, some of the applicants who were ultimately appointed were in that category. However, if your recommendation were accepted, as the Minister of Immigration indicated she would, everyone on the potential list would have qualified at least by meeting the pass mark.
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
That is correct.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
And in your opinion, the objective of the test would be such that anyone who passed that particular examination would at least meet the bottom threshold that would ensure that there was the right combination of knowledge, background, experience, and required competence to perform the function required of an IRB chair to perform.
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
That is correct.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
As a consequence, if indeed you were going to raise the level of competence by the process you suggest, then the numbers of discards, so to speak, by the subjective basis of the advisory board would be lessened because people would be weeded out by the objective testing standards. Is that correct?
4:20 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
Madam Chair, that's drawing a conclusion that you may wish to draw. All we were indicating is that in the first step, the examination--and there are several steps in the process--there should be pass conditions, and that should be the minimum to move to the next step.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
What we could confidently say, under the system you propose, is that when an applicant gets to the advisory board or a combined advisory and selection board, they would already be competent enough to serve on the IRB board, according to those standards, except for a further selection or de-selection process.
4:25 p.m.
former Executive Director, Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, Privy Council, As an Individual
They're competent to move to the next step, which includes a personal interview and a behavioural set of activities.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
So in your analysis, what you propose would be at least a significant enhancement of what we now have, and it would perhaps be more objective.
