Government Operations Committee on March 13th, 2008

[John H. Gomery]

I do not fully grasp your question.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

It has been stated that improvements have been made to the rules governing the financing of political parties. Does the bill go far enough? Could it go further still? If such is the case, what would your recommendations be?

[John H. Gomery]

It is difficult for me to remember all the details of this reform, but it is very good overall.

One thing that frustrated us during the commission's work was the fact that a good many of the breaches of the Electoral Act were committed at a time such that no legal action could be taken.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

There was a limitation period.

[John H. Gomery]

It was necessary to extend the period for legal prosecution purposes. I believe that the Act has been amended to this effect. Virtually all of the breaches that were discovered had taken place at a time such that we could no longer charge anyone.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Pat Martin, please.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Gomery, and good morning.

Mr. Gomery, the way I see it, the greatest injury coming out of the sponsorship scandal, or any scandal, is not necessarily the money that may or may not have been pilfered away. It's the blow to the public's confidence in its institutions. Let me say that I think it had a soothing effect for Canadians to turn on their TVs, week after week, and see a good and decent man like you doing your darndest to get to the bottom of that scandal. We have another one brewing. We've just finished, at the ethics committee, dealing with the Schreiber-Mulroney affair. I'd like to ask you what you're doing for the next 18 months or so, if you wouldn't mind helping the nation once again, because there's a gaping—

[John H. Gomery]

My cows are about to give birth to their calves, and that's my principal preoccupation.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I understand fully.

I have two brief issues and I have very little time.

Let me talk about one of your recommendations on the ministerial accountability and responsibility that you've made reference to. We're embroiled now, as you've noticed in the paper, in what they're calling NAFTAgate, where two of the most senior officials in the country are at the heart of this scandal.

If the rules you recommended were in fact put into effect regarding ministerial accountability, what effect would that have had on this case in point, this example we have before us today?

[John H. Gomery]

That's a very hard question. I don't know that I could answer that question.

These were exempt staff, were they?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes.

[An hon. member]

One ambassador and one chief of staff.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have the floor and very little time.

[John H. Gomery]

Once again, one of the problems I thought we dealt with in the report and recommendations is that the exempt staff in the Prime Minister's Office, or in any ministerial office, don't seem to be the subject of any laws.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

A law unto themselves.

[John Gomery]

It seems to me that's a situation that should be addressed and dealt with by a code of conduct, or a law, or something so that people cannot run around and say they work for the Prime Minister of Canada, and he thinks this or he thinks that. Who knows whether they are speaking the truth and whether in fact they are representing the public interest or the Prime Minister's wishes, and so on? As it stands, of course, the Prime Minister now can say “No, no, I never authorized that statement to be made”. There's just no encadrement that I can see for this staff. I think that's something that is a matter of concern.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

It was a culture of secrecy that I think you and others have identified that allowed corruption to flourish, not just in the last regime but perhaps building up over decades in Ottawa. That freedom of information, access to information, is such a cornerstone. Sunlight is a powerful disinfectant, they say.

John Reid came to your commission and articulated a clear plan of action. The Conservatives ran on this, actually. When they say the Gomery commission defeated that government and elected that one, the first point in their accountability promises to Canadians was a comprehensive reform of the Access to Information Act. Yet it was yarded out of the Federal Accountability Act, wholesale. The whole chapter was virtually removed and a paltry pittance replaced.

Do you agree with us that perhaps the single most important thing we could do would be a revamp of our freedom of information laws in terms of elevating ethical standards by shining a light on activity?

[John H. Gomery]

Of course we recommended that these reforms proposed by Mr. Reid be implemented to a very great extent. There were a couple of reserves about some of them, but generally speaking, they were there.

I think that the era of secrecy in government is the past. I am convinced that any government that behaves secretly is eventually sowing the seeds of its own defeat because the public is so insistent upon knowing what is going on. There was a time when perhaps a less-well-educated electorate would tolerate a certain level of secrecy in government, and I think that era is over. I think every government is going to have to recognize that. It's not only the government that resists this; I think the public service resists it as well, and I just think it's too bad. They're going to have to get used to the fact that the public is going to insist on its right to know what's going on.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

The right to know--that's excellent. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We'll go with Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Let me echo what some of my colleagues have said and thank you, Mr. Gomery, for the work that you have done. Certainly there is a tremendous appreciation for it, and I think Canadians are well served by the work you did in uncovering one of the greatest Liberal corruption scandals in government history, not only in Canada but around the globe.

I want to mention a few things in my comments and then get your thoughts on them. At the start of today's session I heard Mr. Holland talk about how all the political parties were for accountability. I just want to note before I delve into this that the Liberals were in power for a long period, and suggesting the Liberals are on the cusp, after all those terms, if they had only had a fifth term they would have acted on accountability, is like suggesting you're going to wait for season tickets for the Quebec Nordiques. We know what that party's track record was, and I want to point to some of the things that have been accomplished. There are some very direct areas where your recommendations have resulted in substantive change for the Government of Canada because of the work that you've done.

I'd like to point out a few. Your recommendation number two is:

The Government should adopt legislation to entrench into law a Public Service Charter.

Well, that's done, through the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act.

Your recommendation number four is:

In order to clear up the confusion over the respective responsibilities and accountabilities of Ministers and public servants, the Government should modify its policies and publications to explicitly acknowledge and declare that Deputy Ministers and senior public servants who have statutory responsibility are accountable in their own right for their statutory and delegated responsibilities before the Public Accounts Committee.

Well, that's done in the Federal Accountability Act.

Your recommendation number five is:

The decision of the Minister should be recorded in correspondence to be transmitted by the Deputy Minister concerned to the Comptroller General in the Treasury Board Secretariat, and be available there for examination by the Office of the Auditor General.

That's also done in the Federal Accountability Act.

Gomery recommendation number 10 is:

The Government should remove the provision in the law and in its policies that enables exempt staff members to be appointed to a position in the public service without competition after having served in a Minister’s office for three years.

That is also done in the Federal Accountability Act.

Gomery recommendation number 11 is:

The Government should prepare and adopt a Code of Conduct for Exempt Staff that includes provisions stating that exempt staff have no authority to give direction to public servants and that Ministers are fully responsible and accountable for the actions of exempt staff.

That's also done in the Federal Accountability Act, a guide for ministers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

There's a point of order here.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I rise on a point of order, Madam Chair. I simply wish to underscore the fact that, given that the member opposite has just stated that there are some elements that have been done...

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Is this a point of order? This is not a point of order.