Government Operations Committee on May 27th, 2008

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Minto, how many small and medium Canadian enterprises deal with the government? Are there many of them?

[Shahid Minto]

There are very many. This data is available at Public Works. I don't keep the data. They are the owners of that data, they manage that data, and that's the department you should get the data from. If you want, on behalf of the committee I could contact them to see what I can get, but they keep that data.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I would like to compare the percentages. Among all the contracts concluded by Public Works and Government Services Canada, how does the percentage of small and medium enterprises compare to the percentage of big companies?

[Shahid Minto]

I fully appreciate your reasons for doing that and your need for it, but it's really an operational manager's responsibility to create and maintain that database, not mine. If you want, I could contact Public Works and pass the request on to them.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

It does not matter. We will try to get them.

The contracts for National Defence are drafted by Public Works. If I understand correctly, whatever Public Works does for National Defence is beyond your control and supervision.

Is that correct?

[Shahid Minto]

Madam Chair, two points need clarification here.

One is, we have to remember that Public Works is the contracting arm of the government. The procurement process is much bigger than just contracting. The procurement process starts up front when somebody has a need for something and defines the need.

That's where it starts. Then you get into specifications, then a procurement strategy, and then you come to contracting. Then somebody has to accept those things. And then, as we do now, we have long-term maintenance of contracts; that contract administration continues.

Public Works is only in the middle, doing this part, the procurement strategy, as well as the contracting part.

Second, we have to remember that for the smaller contracts we talk about, Public Works is not issuing the majority. The majority of the smaller contracts are issued by other departments. There's an intent now to pass more of those out to the departments. Public Works may not even be the contracting authority for a lot of the business we are going to look at.

It's very important to note that I am not the ombudsman for Public Works; I am the ombudsman for procurement for the federal government, a lot of which is done outside Public Works through delegated authorities of the minister.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Let us suppose that Public Works needs accommodations for some given department and sends out invitations to tender. If there happens to be some difficulty in interpreting a bid, would this come into your hands, if the person turned to the ombudsman?

[Shahid Minto]

Here, the dollar limitations would kick in. If it's over $100,000 for services or if it's over $25,000 for goods, you go to the CITT if you have a problem with the award of the contract. If you have a problem when the contract has already been awarded....

I'll give you an example. We get calls from people asking where their cheque is, as they didn't get it. That's contract administration. Irrespective of the amount of the contract, we will deal with that.

So it depends on the amount; that's the structure of the act that you passed. If it's over $25,000 for goods or over $100,000 for services, you go for the contract award to CITT.

As I said before, we want to hear about that complaint. We want to hear about it because there may be a systemic problem in that department, and we want to go and look at the systems and processes. How could it happen? And if it happened here, could it happen elsewhere? How do we prevent it from happening? That's our role.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I am asking this because a small company on the North Shore submitted a tender for leasing accommodations. Public Works needed accommodations for a part of a department. The contract amounted to $54,000. This involved a small, ordinary company on the North Shore whose owner is not wealthy. However, it turned out that the contract was poorly drafted, and impossible for an ordinary person to understand. Something went wrong.

What happens in a case like that?

[Shahid Minto]

Really, I don't mean to complicate your life here, but remember you're talking about a lease, and as defined by the government, this is the hole in the bucket, I think. As defined by the government, a lease is more procurement that I can look at. I understand. This person's only thing now is either to go back to the person he's complaining about or to go to court. There is no independent third party to go to.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Minto, this is where I see a problem. Of course, financially robust companies that go after the big contracts can go before the Canadian International Trade Tribunal. However, an owner of a small company is afraid of standing up for his rights before a department, because he does not want to be brushed aside and because he has to get other contracts in order to make a living. The North Shore is not a wealthy region, after all. A company in a small place outside the large centres cannot stand up for its rights, because it is not included in your mandate and because its contract is not large enough. Moreover it cannot afford to go to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal.

Do you see the problem I have with your job description?

[Shahid Minto]

Madam Chair, I don't mean to be argumentative here, but we have to remember that the specific example you gave me dealt with leasing, and I answered it for the leasing thing. But if the same constituent had a problem supplying desks for $66,000, or chairs, or some good or other service, of course we would deal with it. He doesn't have to come to our office; he can just send us an e-mail or make a telephone call or go on our website. It's not a lot of money. It's not a lot of interruption, and in the majority of cases we've dealt with so far, we've been able to make four phone calls and resolve the matter. Everything doesn't require a full-blown investigation.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

If it was not a lease-back, but some kind of outright sale for $54,000, you would not be able to deal with it. Moreover, the company owner cannot turn to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal.

[Shahid Minto]

Yes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Are you going to deal with those cases? Can we refer them to you immediately?

[Shahid Minto]

No, what I said is if it's for services under $100,000, we would. If it's for goods under $25,000, we would. If it's over $25,000, it goes to the CITT. That's the law you passed. The Federal Accountability Act clearly stipulates that. My job is to implement that law, not to question it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I want to ask you a question myself.

We know in the past there have been some issues with contracting. When Public Works goes to tender for an agency of record--say, for publicity or advertising for a certain department--what would your role be in that? As you know, the agency of record then gets a series of small contracts, but I'm wondering, if there are complaints, and the agency of record has a contract but doesn't know the value.... It's for a certain length of time. There have been some problems in those areas in the past.

[Shahid Minto]

Madam, I have been involved myself in reviewing some of those, from the sponsorship, for example.

Let me just say that my mandate relating to the award of the contracts is linked to the AIT, the Agreement on Internal Trade. One of the exemptions in that is for advertising, so if it is strictly a problem where somebody wants to complain about the award of an advertising contract, I can't deal with it.

However, the first part of the mandate, which deals with practice reviews, has no link with the AIT. It is general--all practices for all kinds of procurements--and clearly, except for the exempted departments, you could look at that, and we would take a great deal of interest in looking to see how they're managed. It is a sensitive area. We are aware of the interest parliamentarians have in it. We're aware of the interest the public has in it. When we do our planning, that's going to be a major input into our planning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you very much.

I believe Madame Faille has a short question.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Yes, I have only one or two brief questions.

Does your mandate include contracts awarded by PWGSC for publicity and government surveys?

[Shahid Minto]

As I was just explaining, Madame, the previous contracts that have already gone were prior to May. They're gone.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

What about the next ones?

[Shahid Minto]

The contracts award would not be under our purview because the AIT has an exemption. But in our practice reviews, we would have the opportunity to look at how departments develop these contracts.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Some people felt that they were adversely affected because they thought that they would be able to do this kind of work. Unfortunately, the government has developed policies that favour the awarding of contracts to single suppliers.

In such cases, could a person who says they can do this kind of work come to complain to you, starting on May 1?

[Shahid Minto]

I'm a little surprised that you would think the government is fostering a policy of going for sole-source. I think the foundation of government procurement is equal access to all Canadians. If there are exceptions to that, we would be interested in hearing about it. If somebody comes to us, we will deal with it appropriately.