Evidence of meeting #31 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was complaints.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
Counsel, Legal Services, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
Indeed, everything is complaint driven.
9:40 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
On your second question, in terms of exceptions for regional development or other exceptions under the Canadian agreement, I believe it would be section 500 of the agreement.
9:40 a.m.
Randy Heggart Director of Procurement Review, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
It's article 504.
9:40 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
It's article 504, which will list the preferences that are allowed. The general standard is set in section 400, I believe, and then the exceptions are called for under section 500 of the agreement. I can maybe give you some examples. I referred in my text to programs for aboriginal businesses. We also have regional development exceptions. Then I recall there's also one for special programs like ACOA. That is under section 508, regional and economic development exceptions.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
But they're not specified, so it's up to the tribunal essentially to adjudicate or to define how that could be operative.
9:40 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
Where that exception would have been used in the tender.... It's up to the tribunal, if a complaint was filed, to see if that exception was properly applied and that they didn't go beyond the scope of what was contemplated in the agreement.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Okay, but because it is not specified in the agreement, is it fair to say that it is jurisprudence that you establish? In other words, you're providing greater definition than actually exists within the agreement.
9:40 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
Our reasons in our decisions, as they come down, interpret specific provisions of the agreement. But each case is specific, as you know.
9:40 a.m.
Director of Procurement Review, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
We have not had any specific cases on regional economic development.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you very kindly. I think your appearance here today will also be helpful in just making the general public aware of some of the scope and responsibilities you do have. In most cases, a lot of your activities fall outside the general population's interest. So I think this is a good opportunity.
I have four questions, and I'll just take them one at time. Some of them, of course, are.... There's no such thing as a minor question, but on page 5 of your opening statement, the third paragraph down, you stated, “The agreements also allow exemptions for reasons of national security and for small and minority businesses.” Could you give me a definition of what you really mean there by small and minority businesses?
9:40 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
There is no definition per se. It is just written that way in the agreement. If we get a complaint, I guess we will be called upon to give an interpretation.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
I didn't know if it was clearly defined or if that was just a bit of a catch-all opportunity. That's fine; you gave me a response on that.
Building on Mr. Holland's point, and I think it was a valid point, you gave a number of the reasons why there would be cause for either judgment or justification either for allowance or denial of particular issues. Of those, have you found any real common denominators? Are there any patterns or trends that clearly could be identified? As an example, we as legislators could say there's a definitive problem in one particular area; we're having an issue that's coming back again and again and again, and it could be due to regulatory requests, demands, desires, etc. Have you found any consistency there, or are you sort of hit-and-miss depending on how things are going?
9:45 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
At the expense of repeating myself a bit, in preparing for this appearance we did a lot of homework. I don't have specific statistics, but what comes up generally more frequently are specifications that are overly restrictive or biased towards a specific supplier. That is one.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Have you found any of those reasons to be...? Has there been a human element in it--paternalism, relationships, undue influences--or has it just simply been each sort of on their--
9:45 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
I can't cross that line, I'm sorry.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
9:45 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
A second one would be insufficient time to bid or failure to grant a time extension when one of the potential suppliers required one. Another bidder was permitted to, effectively, modify his bid after it was filed. Those are the types of things we see that we take exception to.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Okay. If we as legislators could be helpful, or even in the marketing of programs or judicial directions and so on, if we are given some form of direction that would be advance notice to potential people who would be involved.... It would just help them not walk into a situation where other people have been caught before.
9:45 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
You see, as a tribunal, we're constrained by the fact that we are a tribunal and therefore our reasons are our explanations, but we can't go beyond that. The ombudsman has the power to go beyond that, which is not our case.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Okay, thank you.
Going to the third question, you just mentioned the procurement ombudsman. How do you see the establishment of this position of ombudsman? Do you see it as being totally helpful or potentially having some overlap or duplication? Do you see it as an arm's-length or symbiotic relationship? What do you see with this?
9:45 a.m.
Chairman, Canadian International Trade Tribunal
I think it is complementary because of the thresholds. He can deal with smaller complaints where we did not have any jurisdiction. It's complementary in that sense.
Beyond that, I think the question addresses policy issues, which I can't get into.
