Government Operations Committee on March 12th, 2009

[Patricia Hassard]

Thank you for that question.

Actually, I think it's an excellent point. As we create new organizations or as we're looking at improving our business processes, one of the things that we do need to look at is whether they would be better placed in a region than in the national headquarters. You're extremely correct. For example, we have a pension administration business in Shediac, New Brunswick, which is absolutely fantastic. They do an excellent job. They have a very low turnover rate. They have an extremely experienced workforce. I think the quality of the work benefits from that.

I think it is a question that we should always be asking ourselves: when we're looking at an institutional location, where should it be? I think the turnover question is a significant one.

The other thing I should add is that given the recession, there are actually trends going the other way. We're not sure exactly what will transpire there, but in fact we may see fewer retirements as a result of people being worried about their financial stability. We may see more people who are interested in coming into the public service for the security and benefits it offers. We also may see people who are in the public service who choose not to move because they want to make sure they can maintain that position. It's an interesting combination of factors at the moment.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I guess there's an interesting dynamic right now.

On that note, in answering Mr. McTeague's question, I remember you mentioning 25% potentially retiring in 2012. In light of the economic conditions, do you think that is going to change in 2012? Will that projection still be valid?

[Patricia Hassard]

It's hard to know. Our projection is that the retirements of the baby boomers will peak in 2012 at about 3.7%, but generally speaking, a person doesn't always retire the day they become eligible for their pension. You do see people staying longer, so it depends a little on the policies we adopt. If we make it an attractive workplace where people who are close to retirement would like to work, we will probably see more of them stay.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

In terms of the 66% over the age of 40, is that a unique situation we're in, or has that historically been the median age for the public service? If you could put this into context, is this a changing dynamic?

[Patricia Hassard]

Yes, it is a changing dynamic. In the 1980s, on average, the median was lower. We are an aging group. If you look at the executive cadre, the age profile is probably changing slightly now, but for the last couple of years the cadre has been relatively the same age. So if one retires, you're just putting another person in for a very short period of time.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Can you give me a sense of how different it was in 1980? Are there any statistics that may illuminate that a little? Was it 30% or 65%?

[Patricia Hassard]

I said that in 1983, 42% were over 40; now it's 66%.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

That is a big difference.

Going back to the geographic dispersement, are you aware of aspects of the public service that are taking up that opportunity? Are there others who are more attached to the traditional models?

[Patricia Hassard]

That's not really my area of expertise, but you raise an excellent point. If we want a well-trained and reliable workforce, those are options we need to look at.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Is that one of the areas you're looking at when you make recommendations on renewal?

[Patricia Hassard]

One of the Prime Minister's advisory committee reports mentioned that as a possibility.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you.

The next name I have is Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I have just one question. I probably won't take the whole five minutes, unless the answer leads us to further discussion.

When Madam Barrados was before our committee she expressed some concerns about what she identified as “classification creep”. It seemed to be this unknown process of throwing away lower classifications--as people in this mysterious fashion ended up no longer being part of those classifications--and moving into a higher wage category. Is this a concern you have identified? Have you been looking into this? Is it something you intend to do?

I have been advocating among my committee colleagues to look into this and possibly work to address this.

What can you tell me about that today?

[Patricia Hassard]

On classification, the person who can probably delve into that for you is our new chief human resources officer. She has recently been appointed and has a role to unify all the central agency employer functions, because in the past, classification was separated from compensation. That may give her the levers she needs to dig deeper.

My issue is not so much classification as mobility and whether that system is being used to keep people in place. It's an interesting issue and it probably should be followed up, but you also have to remember that in the public service, as in most organizations, you see a professionalization. There are not that many secretaries or clerks any more. They are knowledge workers and generally have higher classifications.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

On what Madam Barrados expressed concern about, although that is the truth, in her assessment there were certain jobs in which the tasks had not changed, even though the classification had significantly changed over the duration. But this is something we may need to look at in the context of the holistic approach. We'll be bringing the new appointee here to talk about that.

We certainly appreciate your work, and I expect you will get the unanimous consent of this committee today to continue in your work. We want to thank you for your commitment to the public service and to Canadians in general.

[Patricia Hassard]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

To echo the words of Mr. Warkentin, thank you very much for appearing today. Congratulations on your appointment, and thank you for allowing us to do our parliamentary work in scrutinizing generally the cabinet appointments.

Thank you very much.

[Patricia Hassard]

It's my pleasure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

You may withdraw at this time.

Colleagues, if you wish we can have an exchange on the issue of the draft report on the Public Service Commission. Are there any comments that would involve a change in the report?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Okay, then we'll go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]