Government Operations Committee on June 18th, 2009

[Donald Lemaire]

I think that is a very good distinction. Some companies provide staff. The contract is to provide services. Others are really companies that do research on candidates.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

You can understand that a lot of money is involved, which is why we want to understand. These outside companies are the ones causing the problems, as I understand it. As a committee, we cannot ignore a situation that costs the government millions.

[Maria Barrados]

Other committee have already asked me about the costs of head-hunting companies and I have not been able to find the figures easily. However, we can look into it again.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Please. Because it is also possible to insinuate that we might have pals in those companies and we are going to hire their people because we know them. Perhaps this is the next Nec Plus Ultra. I find it quite problematic.

[Maria Barrados]

In a term position, someone can be hired who works almost full-time, who does the job of a public servant but who does not fulfill the requirements of the position. Perhaps it is a matter of language; it often is. It may be someone who has retired and we have not been able to get...There are a lot of possibilities. We intend to research the matter.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you very much. Have a good summer. Do you deserve it? I think you do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Merci.

Ms. Hall Findlay.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Just as a clarification, Madam Barrados, am I correct that you said that 90% of the $300 million is for employment in the Ottawa area?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

What portion of the entire civil service is located in the Ottawa area?

[Maria Barrados]

It's 40%.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

So it does beg the question a little bit, if 40% of the civil service is here but 90% of the use of these firms...and that's 90% of a fairly large number.

Is there something particular about the Ottawa workforce or the Ottawa demand that would make it so disproportionate? I mean, if that's happening in the Ottawa area, how's the rest of the country functioning so well without the use of these private firms?

[Maria Barrados]

Ottawa is different.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

That we know.

[Maria Barrados]

You do have the head offices of the departments here.

Certainly it is a question we have to ask. In most of our examinations of staffing and the workforces in Ottawa versus the regions, the regional workforces tended to be, with the exception of Alberta during the boom, much more stable. There was not the kind of turnover that you saw in Ottawa. We certainly have seen, in this, not the same kind of use of some of these firms.

This has to be part of the further examination that we do.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

My colleague has another question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Ms. Foote.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Pardon my ignorance here, but I'm just wondering what all the initials stand for. You said, “We also found that the AS, PM and ES groups are continuing to grow, while the CR group continues to shrink.”

[Maria Barrados]

“AS” is administrative services, “PM” is program management, “ES” is economists, sociologists, and statisticians, and “CR” is clerical.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you.

[Maria Barrados]

My apologies for having put the acronyms in there.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Well, I needed to ask; I didn't know.

You also talk in here about student employment: “The audit also found that one in three student-bridging appointment processes were unsatisfactory.” That begs one question: why?

[Maria Barrados]

We are very concerned, when there is employment and entry into the public service, for sure, and other jobs that are promotions, that there is a process followed that is transparent and rigorous. This means that we expect the requirements of the job to be assessed, that if you're telling us you're looking for a person with particular skills, there is an assessment of those skills.

So “unsatisfactory” means that we found nothing to indicate that there was any effort to make that assessment, or that what we saw in the files even questioned whether the assessment was thoroughly done.

Jean, did you want to add to that?

[Jean Ste-Marie]

Yes.

The other thing is that when you use a non-advertised process, you're supposed to have a rationale on file. We did not find a rationale on file for 36% of the cases.