Government Operations Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2009

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I am simply asking if it would be appropriate to change the motion by adding « respecting the jurisdictions of the provinces ».

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Yes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Yes, that would suit me. We could insert that phrase somewhere, so that...

Madam Chair, do you understand? You seem to have some questions.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

We're just saying that somewhere in the motion we could add that Infrastructure Canada be ordered to provide the committee all of the above, respecting the jurisdictions of the provinces.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

That is good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That's “all of the above, respecting the jurisdictions of the provinces.”

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Let me explain, Madam Chair. The Government of Quebec receives money from the federal government. The Government of Quebec then redistributes this money according to requests from the municipalities. I believe in some provinces, the Government of Canada can transfer this money directly to some municipalities. I simply want to ensure that Quebec's jurisdiction is respected.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I want to ensure that all provincial jurisdictions are respected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Can I just ask a question for clarification?

This is what I understand and why I'm getting a little concerned.

The federal government is a partner with the province. The province has the fiduciary responsibility to get the money out to the municipalities. The province is acting as a fiduciary agent for the federal government.

Are you telling me--and if I'm not hearing it right, tell me--that in some instances the federal government gives money directly to municipalities in other provinces?

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

It does in some.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

It does?

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

There are differences province to province.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

So that's what I'm hearing. Fair enough.

There were two hands up.

Mr. Brown and Mr. Holder.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

My concern with the motion--although I think it's obviously helpful to have more information--is that I'm not sure you can set deadlines for when you can order the provinces and municipalities to provide you that job information.

I remember when I was on municipal council for five years in Barrie, we dealt with the province. If we pass this motion, the municipalities may or may not provide that information. I think we need to be respectful of the jurisdictions that exist in this country. I think this motion may fall a little bit to the wayside in that manner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Madam Findlay.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Mr. Brown raises a point, and a legitimate one, of wanting to make sure this is information that is in fact available. We can't ask for information that's not available, but I will point out that in the contribution agreements between the provinces and municipalities there is a specific requirement, section 6.2, which specifically talks about an expenditure and job creation report, schedule H, which includes the Government of Canada logo as well as, in this case, the Province of Ontario logo. It specifically requires that there be information on job creation provided on a particular timeframe to the provinces, which is information the Government of Canada is entitled to.

If you look at the motion, it specifically says:

a copy of all of the quarterly Expenditure and Job Creation Reports

--language taken directly from the contribution agreement--

that such department is entitled to receive or has received as of the date hereof, and (ii) by the third calendar day after the date upon which each of the forthcoming quarterly Expenditure and Job Creation Reports is to be submitted to the Government of Canada and/or the government of a province or a territory

This is part of a requirement that has already been placed on the municipalities. There is a timeframe according to them, and the Government of Canada and we as a committee are entitled to have that information.

I would volunteer that, given that this information is required, if it does not become available, it's a different question. If it does become available, I would question why we would be denied that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Holder, you had a question.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a couple of points. I'm trying to understand the motion in its entirety.

A department may be entitled to receive certain information, but this seems to compel them to report information if they're entitled to receive, and it seems to me they're compelled to report even if they don't receive. I am confused by that, because if they don't have it, how can they report it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Yes, Madam Hall Findlay.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Help me to understand that, please.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

One of our concerns is that we had departmental officials just the other day actually say they are not tracking job numbers. That had us very concerned, because in fact the Government of Canada is entitled to receive these reports. If they are not received, then we would expect that the jurisdiction, whether it's the province at the time or the government, in fact insist on receiving something they are legally obliged to.

We are concerned that if this is not insisted upon...if we have departmental officials who are not apparently following job creation reports, we would want to make sure that they do.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Can I just carry on? I'm really trying to understand this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Sure.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

If I have something to give you and I'm compelled to give it to you, I'll give it to you if I've got it, but if I don't have it, for whatever reason, this seems to say I have to give it to you anyway, even if I don't have it.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

It's actually putting a positive obligation on the governmental levels to get the information they're entitled to, because we are also entitled to see that information, and if it's not being followed up on, we want to make sure that it is followed up on.