Evidence of meeting #5 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Maria Barrados  President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Terry Hunt  Director General, Government Wide Audit and Evaluation Directorate, Public Service Commission of Canada
Donald Lemaire  Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michel Marcotte

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

I'll call the meeting to order.

Colleagues, we have with us today Madam Maria Barrados, the president of the Public Service Commission of Canada. She will be addressing us today on the matter of the commission's 2007-08 annual report.

I know members want to take up the issue of turnover rates within the public service, a matter that has been raised previously, publicly in a report by the Public Service Commission itself, so we can begin now.

Madam Barrados, would you care to make your opening statement?

11:05 a.m.

Maria Barrados President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Mr. Chair and honourable members, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to meet with your committee to discuss the 2007-2008 annual report of the Public Service Commission of Canada that was tabled on December 2. Two audits and a report on investigations were also tabled at that time and the Public Service Commission also released three studies including a study on mobility of public servants.

As you are aware, the Public Service Commission is an independent agency which reports to Parliament. Our authority comes from the Public Service Employment Act, which mandates us to safeguard the integrity of the public service staffing system and the political neutrality of the public service. We develop policies and guidelines to ensure that appointments are made according to the merit principle and respect the values of fairness, transparency, access and representativeness. We conduct audits and investigations to confirm the effectiveness of this staffing system and its impartiality in order to make improvements. The Commission also recruits talented Canadians to the public service, drawn from across the country. We provide staffing and assessment services to departments and agencies on a discretionary basis.

I'm here today with Donald Lemaire, senior vice-president of policy, and Terry Hunt, director general of government-wide audit and evaluations in the audit, evaluation and studies branch. While my comments will focus on our annual report and the issue of mobility, we are also looking forward to returning to this committee to discuss our estimates, including our plans and priorities, which we table next month, as well as the results of the horizontal strategic review of human resources management, which were included in Budget 2009, and the results of the independent review of our oversight activities that will be released shortly.

Our report covers the second year of operation under the Public Service Employment Act, or PSEA. The legislation covered 82 organizations with more than 195,000 employees. This represents a 4.1% increase in the population of the public service over the previous year. It was a very active year for departments and agencies, with more staffing actions and more permanent hires. We continue to see significant interest in the public service and its jobs. More than a quarter of a million individuals sent in about one million applications to jobs.gc.ca—an average of 90 applications per posting.

The federal public service can now be described as functionally operating under a fully established delegated staffing system, with deputy heads in charge of and accountable for staffing processes. Overall, the performance of the staffing system is assessed as “acceptable” this year, with few examples of management excellence and some areas that require attention. Generally speaking, the core values of merit and non-partisanship are being respected, but ongoing vigilance is required. There is room for improvement in making the system fairer and more accessible, transparent, and representative.

There is still a requirement for improvement in human resource planning, with about 50% of departments and agencies assessed as less than fully acceptable. Stronger human resource planning is generally associated with improved outcomes. More concrete and precise staffing strategies with measurable targets are central to producing a more effective and responsive staffing function across the public service.

In one of our audits, the PSC reviewed the staffing of the executive cadre, the EXs, during 2006. This was the first year in the implementation of delegated EX staffing. Executive appointments should be made with particular care, since their leadership and responsibilities impact employees, the organization, and the reputation of the public service. We found that the executive appointment processes, for the most part, respected merit. With regard to the application of PSC and other policies, here significant improvement is required.

We found instances where merit was not respected, where there was an appearance of preferential treatment, and where key assessment documents were lacking. Out of the 348 appointments reviewed, half were satisfactory; others needed improvement. Forty-seven cases, 13.5%, were found to be unsatisfactory. We will further examine the unsatisfactory files to determine the need for any additional corrective action. We expect to see improvements as we move beyond the initial implementation, and we plan to do a follow-up audit in two years.

The capacity of the human resources community continues to be a concern. The increased workload generated by increased staffing activities and the implementation of a fully delegated system have stretched the capacity of the HR specialists who provide critical guidance and support to managers. In addition to increased workload, the capacity of the HR community has been challenged by a very high level of turnover. In our study on the mobility of public servants between 1997 and 2008, we noted a particularly high rate of movement in the HR community as well as a significant decline in the number of years spent at one level before promotion to the next.

The rate of movement of the personnel administration groups, or PEs, to which HR specialists belong, reached 74% in 2007-08. This was the highest rate of movement observed over the 11-year study period. The executives, the EXs, also had one of the higher rates of mobility in 2007-08, at 55%.

Our study found that mobility in the overall public service increased from 30% in 2004-05 to 42% in 2007-08. Both public service growth and retirements influenced movement patterns. Between March 1999 and March 2008, the indeterminate workforce grew by 36%, and there were many more indeterminate appointments in 2007-08 than at any other time in the study period.

At the same time, retirements almost quadrupled over the study period. More than 34,000 public servants retired over the last 11 years. About 68% of these employees retired in the last five years. While retirements increased for all groups studied, they were more pronounced, and accounted for most separations, in the PE--the HR people--and the EX groups.

The national capital region consistently had a higher rate of employee movement than the regions. We observed little movement between the national capital region and the other regions over the study period. With the exception of central agencies, we noted little movement between organizations. Small and medium-sized organizations demonstrated higher inter-organizational movement than their larger counterparts. Some high-movement occupational groups are increasingly moving between departments and agencies.

Significantly high mobility can have a negative impact on operational efficiency and effectiveness. The findings of this study reinforce the need for HR planning to take into account the nature and scope of employee movement. They also underline the importance of developing recruitment, retention, and succession strategies for certain occupational groups and functional communities.

In last year's annual report, the PSC raised concerns about the declining proportion of new employees to the public service drawn from visible minority groups. However, recent changes to the PSC database of applicant information have provided further information suggesting that appointments of visible minorities to the public service may have been underestimated.

We believe that there were more visible minorities candidates appointed then previously reported. We are now working with other key partners to address this important issue. This committee may be interested in further examining the issue of representativeness and the challenges related to its measurement, particularly the aspect of self-identification.

To increase the representation of visible minorities in the executive ranks, the PSC launched a second external appointment process to establish a pool of qualified candidates at the EX-1 level. We are building on the success of the first collective staffing process, which demonstrated that special, focused efforts are effective. We have created a pool of 30 visible minority candidates and we are now working with departments and agencies to place them into executive positions.

Through these initiatives, the Public Service Commission is helping federal organizations build a public service that better reflects our increasingly diverse society.

Providing access is also an important guiding value in the PSCA. The PSC is moving forward with its national area of selection policy. In April 2007, the PSC expanded the requirement to use national area of selection for officer-level jobs open to the public from the national capital region to include all regions of the country.

This requirement was expanded in December 2008 to externally advertise non-officer-level jobs, including clerical and secretarial jobs. As a result, all Canadians, regardless of where they live or work, are now able to apply for the vast majority of federal public service jobs that are open to the public. We expect this expansion will lead to a higher number of applications.

The PSC also worked with other federal organizations to enact legislation ensuring that Canadian Forces reservists could return to their public service jobs once their leave of absence for training or other volunteer service has expired. During this reporting period, the PSC made 138 appointments of medically released Canadian Forces members from its priority list.

We are now working to extend priority entitlement to the spouses of Canadian Forces members, Royal Canadian Mounted Police members, and public service employees who die in the service of Canada.

I would now like to elaborate on investigations, which play an important part in our oversight activities.

The PSC commenced eight investigations concerning allegations of fraud in appointment processes. In three of the four investigations completed, the allegations were founded. We also completed 17 investigations into improper political activities, and in 16 cases, employees were found to have acted contrary to the PSCA.

The Public Service Commission carefully considered whether to name the individuals involved, bearing in mind the public interest as well as privacy considerations. This was done on a case-by-case basis. Cases where names were disclosed are contained in the report on investigations. We are not able to disclose summaries on two individuals because their cases are currently under judicial review.

In concluding my remarks, I am reminded that we are still in the early years of putting in place the most comprehensive HR reforms in the federal public service in the past three and a half decades. Progress has been made, and it is important that we sustain this momentum, despite the things that take away our focus and attention, to safeguard the values that are the foundation of a professional and non-partisan public service.

Thank you. Merci. We are happy to take your questions.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Thank you very much for that report.

I should also introduce those accompanying Ms. Barrados, as important witnesses on these issues. Donald Lemaire is senior vice-president of the policy branch, and Terry Hunt is director general, government-wide audit and evaluation directorate.

I want to compliment your team for making reference in the report to some important issues. The candour is quite refreshing. Some of my colleagues may differ with me on this, but for anyone who's ever been jerked around in the public service over a promotion, the candour in finding that approximately half the cases you reviewed were possibly below the satisfactory level....

I had intended to jump all over the Public Service Commission in the absence of statistical data on visible minority hiring, but you've addressed that. I may have a question later.

The growth in the indeterminate appointments by 36% has got to attract the attention of some of the government members here—we'll see if it does—or, if not, the opposition.

We'll go to questioning, so the first round will go to Ms. Hall Findlay for eight minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here this morning.

I have actually a larger question. It's not based specifically on the report but more from experience I've had over the last couple of years of listening to senior civil servants, in particular Kevin Lynch in his prior capacity, making presentations and speaking—certainly from my background in the business world, which is where we were hearing these presentations—and really advocating a need for more people to want to join the civil service, suggesting that the civil service wasn't attractive enough, that the aging demographic was of concern in terms of being able to replenish and renew.

I would like it if you could just comment on that a little bit, because I haven't heard that here—not that it would be in that report. Ms. Barrados, maybe you could speak to it, but anybody else could too. Is it indeed a concern? If so, how are we addressing it?

It's really a more open question for your commentary, if you would.

11:20 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Maria Barrados

I'll give you some of my thoughts on this, and members may want to pose other questions.

If we take the current size of the public service--we accept that, and that's subject to debate obviously--at the rate of retirements we have to have an inflow of about 8,500 to 9,000 people to maintain its current size. That is because we had a big expansion in the public service during the seventies, and those people are now the baby boomers, are now coming to retirement age, and retiring.

The public service has traditionally not had a high level of departures. The level of departures for all reasons, including being relieved of your duties, retirement, going to other jobs, has always run around 2%, less than 2% sometimes, and now we're seeing departures that are around 5%. For any private sector organization this is still extremely low. The public service is not used to that, so there's been a significant increase in departures.

We have an aging workforce. We have more departures than we've seen, and if we maintain the size, we have to bring people in. A number of issues arise from that. Obviously the people who are intending to leave at the end of their careers are at the senior levels. We bring them in at the bottom. So have we got the training and development to get people to the right place quickly enough? Big set of questions.

We also have a lot of interest in the public service, so I disagree with the comment that it's not attractive. When you have a million applications for 5,000 postings, a lot of people are interested. The real issue is have we got the right set of skills for the people we're looking for? This is where I think there is also a significant challenge. We have some areas of shortage, so we know what they are, but we also have developed some very bad habits in the public service.

Hiring people from casual employment into the indeterminate workforce, the permanent workforce, is not the best way to get talent. You have to be prepared to hire people directly into your permanent workforce. You don't bring them on as casual; you don't bring them on as terms, because you're not then going to get that pool of people. So a number of bad habits have been created. We have to bring in the numbers. We have to train them and we have to make sure we do the proper matching. So it is a set of challenges, given the size of the public service.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you. I expect that given the economy, some of that may change with losses of jobs in the private sector, but it doesn't necessarily address what you just described as bad habits in terms of how you bring them along.

I have a couple of other questions if I have time. In one piece of the report you talk about executive appointments, certain ones being unsatisfactory. Could you elaborate on what the criteria are for what is satisfactory or not? And again, any one if--

11:25 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Maria Barrados

I'll comment on the economy and the change in the economy.

We have an issue with dealing with high volumes of applications and dealing with the applications fairly. We have an issue of making sure that all regions get equal access. We have issues of language in these jobs. And I expect that all those issues would become more acute as the public service jobs have an element of security that other jobs don't have, so I expect more applications. I expect more challenge. I expect we'll have a lot more challenge in managing that system.

Terry Hunt is the director general responsible for the EX audit. We set up a series of criteria determining whether this was good enough. I'll ask him to expand on that. Satisfactory was good enough. We're not looking for perfection.

When we were looking at the others and you weren't good enough, it meant that there was a major problem.

If you were unsatisfactory, our 47 cases, you're required to say what you need in a meritorious appointment. One of those criteria weren't met, so you didn't meet the test, so that's unsatisfactory.

When they looked at the files, if it looked as if the whole system was set up to get a favoured person, that was not a fair process. That was unsatisfactory.

If you looked at a file and there was absolutely no sign that anything was assessed, it looked as if a miracle occurred and this person was named, you could not--it was just empty: unsatisfactory.

In the middle, where we're saying this really needs to improve, we looked at the compliance with the legislation and the directives. But it means if you are asked to assess somebody's skills, we expect to see there's some kind of assessment. So there was a big set of problems.

The areas where we had the largest set of problems were those areas called “unadvertised”. The new legislation allows managers to appoint people through a competitive process and it allows appointments unadvertised; you don't compete the process. Those we expect to be used judiciously. We expect managers to have a good reason why they go unadvertised. What would be a good reason? If you have a critical shortage area--there are not many people with those skills, you've tried before, you've looked extensively, and you now have someone--that would make sense for me to have that be unadvertised.

Frankly, if you're hiring administrative support, I don't see that there's a good reason for going unadvertised. So we have a lot of issues with the unadvertised, and those we would put in the area of unsatisfactory.

Terry, did you want to add to that?

11:25 a.m.

Terry Hunt Director General, Government Wide Audit and Evaluation Directorate, Public Service Commission of Canada

Yes, I would just add.... As the president mentioned, we had 47 cases that were unsatisfactory. When we're conducting an audit, the bar is very high. So when we say “appearance of preferred candidate”, we made sure that when we were going through the files, the story was there, that there wasn't the appearance of preferred candidates.

We had the three areas. One where merit was not met. When we were looking at the qualifications, actual questions were not passed; they didn't pass the question, yet they were appointed, regardless.

Then we had 31 instances where we had the appearance of a preferred candidate.

And then, finally, we had 13 appointments where there was no assessment and in fact there was a blank page.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

That would wrap it up for this round.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you very much.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Ms. Bourgeois, you have eight minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Barrados, gentlemen, welcome.

Ms. Barrados, I am pleased to meet you. I just want to make sure I understand exactly what you do. I would like to know which groups come under your authority.

11:30 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Maria Barrados

Thank you.

That is defined by law. The PSC oversees 82 organizations called the core of the public service. This includes almost all departments and many agencies, but not Crown corporations, as well as part of the RCMP, that is, the civilian component, but not the men and women in uniform. So then, the PSC represents about 200,000 people.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

It was recently announced that the Canada Public Service Agency would be dismantled. What exactly did this Agency do? For which groups was it responsible? Was the Agency responsible for the very same 200,000 public servants you now oversee?

11:30 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Maria Barrados

More or less. We are responsible not only for the core group, but for other organizations as well. It is not that the Agency will stop what it is doing. The Agency will hand over responsibility for agencies to Treasury Board. But it will still do the same work. However, with a smaller budget, more responsibilities will be assigned to departments and deputy ministers.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Before your appearance here this morning, I did some research to better understand what you do.

Is it the job of the Public Service Commission to recruit regular emplloyees, such as secretaries? Didn't the Agency focus on recruiting high-ranking public servants?

11:30 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Maria Barrados

No, not exactly. The Public Service Commission is responsible for all staffing, for all positions, from the assistant deputy minister down to the clerk level. We are not responsible for the appointment of Deputy Ministers and other senior officials appointed by the Prime Minister.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

So there was no overlap between the work of the agency and the work of the Public Service Commission regarding the recruitment of personal.

11:30 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Maria Barrados

Today we have a system of delegation. The Public Service Commission delegated the power of staffing and appoints to positions. The minister and the employer are now responsible for doing things in that area if they want. This is included in the powers of the commission within the framework of its rules and policies.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

This means that a public servant working in a department has the power to hire staff. So the Commission delegated this power to the public servants who must work within the parameters of the new act. Is that correct?

11:35 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Last January, there was an article based on a report by Radio Canada. It said that the federal government had paid tens of millions of dollars in commissions to private placement agencies to hire staff.

Can you please explain why over $170 million was spent in commission to these agencies, when the Public Service Commission says that we have competent officials to hire staff in the public service?

11:35 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Maria Barrados

The procedure we adopted is called delegation. There is an obligation to satisfy the requirements and principles of the act, to respect the principles of merit, impartiality, fairness, transparency, access and representivity. We do not tell people how to hire people because we do not want to go back to the old system. So we now have a system which delegates authority.

We have notice that some managers just cannot hire staff. In the Human Resources sector, there is a lack of capacity. The commission retained a staffing service. We have a great of expertise in that area. We do a lot of recruiting for others. However, it is not mandatory.

In the spirit of the new act, it is very important that we have a system of delegation where by managers can assume their responsibilities. However, they turn to us a lot. I cannot speak to the used of placement agencies because that it left to the discretion of managers. For me, the issue is whether they have hired someone competent in accordance with the requirement of the act.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

I find it somewhat unfortunate that you have expertise that you lend to the departments. You are supposed to ensure—this is your mandate—that human resources managers are able to hire staff.

Yet we are spending $170 million more because you don't have the means to compel these managers to call upon your expertise. That is quite odd.

11:35 a.m.

President, Public Service Commission of Canada

Maria Barrados

That is a very good observation.