Government Operations Committee on April 21st, 2010

[Patrick Glémaud]

It was not stated on the service page. If you look at the service page, it outlines clearly the services that were provided. The information is background information or biographical information, and it is not on the service page. On the service page we talk about knowledge of legislation. This is not a lobbying activity. This is an activity that most law firms provide.

Also, please keep in mind the fact that when we talk about government consultation or knowledge of government legislation on our website, that doesn't imply lobbying activities. To have lobbying activities, you have to go back into the legislation. We cannot be making allegations or innuendoes of what lobbying is, or what this or that is, without going back to the legislation. There is a Parliament that passes laws, and based on these laws there is a certain threshold. If you have the threshold, then you are subject to this treatment and that treatment, and so on. That's why the commissioner of lobbying is asked to deal with that matter.

This committee doesn't have a perfect understanding of the Lobbying Act. The person who has that understanding is the commissioner of lobbying, who is an officer of Parliament. That was the power given to her by Parliament, and therefore she should be the one addressing these issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Mr. Glémaud. And thank you, Mr. Lukiwski; I'll be getting you back on another round as well.

Go ahead, Ms. Coady, for five minutes.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much.

This is quickly becoming a he-said, she-said scenario, and there is a matter of public trust, Mr. Glémaud.

I'm looking at Mr. Rahim Jaffer's website. It's rahimjaffer.com. Under the biography, it clearly states that Mr. Jaffer provides the company with "business expertise in industry financing" in order to help "secure support from the Canadian government and to obtain contracts abroad" and also plays a "crucial role in business development and marketing through his countless relationships developed from his former career as a parliamentarian".

It is clearly stated on the website that this is the case.

I'll go back to my he-said, she-said point. Mr. Glémaud, when I asked questions earlier about your meetings with Mr. Jean and how they advanced and what actually occurred, you said, “Look, I just made a phone call to the parliamentary secretary's office, and they told me to go this avenue. I did submit the executive summary.” Now Mr. Jean says that's not exactly accurate. He said that you did submit proposals and that he had the paperwork in front of him.

Again there is this he-said, she-said aspect, and there are many instances today. I could talk about Mr. Gallani's statement that you had a business relationship as well.

However, as an entrepreneur, I have a question. I'm a former entrepreneur. I've started many companies, and I'm confused about your business model. If you're just assisting or advising, I'd like to know how you actually get paid for your services.

I'll ask you a question. If the projects that you submitted to Mr. Jean for review had been successful, would you have had any financial or other benefit accrue to you?

[Patrick Glémaud]

In response to your first question, with regard to Mr. Brian Jean, there is no he-said, she-said. Basically, it's on the words that have been used. Mr. Jean mentioned there was a proposal; we mentioned that it was an executive summary. However, at the end it's a document that was submitted for the purpose of establishing whether there was an interest and for the purpose of gathering information and submitting information.

If there was an interest, then there would be a request to submit a detailed business plan with all the details of the project. That would be viewed as the actual grant or contribution agreement application, and that's when lobbying will start. We didn't get to that stage. Our understanding is that if we were ever in a position to be at that stage, then I would have decided to register myself as a lobbyist. It was not complicated.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Could you just tell me what those three proposals or executive summaries were that you submitted to the parliamentary secretary? I would suggest that not many people have access to the parliamentary secretary. There is a normal process and channel where you would get those questions answered. It wouldn't normally be the parliamentary secretary.

Would you have benefited in any way, shape, or form had those proposals been successful?

[Patrick Glémaud]

No, because at that time we basically said if there is an interest, then we go back to the client, we sit down with the client, and we say okay, based on the terms and conditions of the program, the government is of the view that it fits the terms and conditions of the program. At that time we would decide if they are submitting an application or we are submitting an application on their behalf.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

So using your words, if there was interest by Mr. Jean or his department, then you would have made a business arrangement that would have given you some financial benefit.

[Patrick Glémaud]

No.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Well, that's what you just said.

[Patrick Glémaud]

No, I cannot speculate. I said “if” there is an interest, then we go back and sit down to see if there is the potential to do business with them or not. If there is a decision to do business with them, then we submit the registration under the Lobbying Act.

That would be the normal--

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Then you would have submitted a registration if there had been interest by the parliamentary secretary's office. Is that what you just said?

[Rahim Jaffer]

Well, that's not the process.

[Patrick Glémaud]

Well, I mean, look....

[Rahim Jaffer]

That's not the process. Just so you're clear--

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I have one final question. We'll stop there; one final question.

Mr. Jaffer, you said you didn't have a relationship with Mr. Gillani or International Strategic Investments. I think Mr. Martin's correct that Mr. Gillani thought you had.... You met with him over five or six times; that's in the public domain.

Did you ever discuss with Mr. Gillani the Wright Tech system, or was it part of those discussions? Was that ever part of your discussions, and possible fit? You say you didn't have a fit, but was that part of the fit with Mr. Gillani?

[Rahim Jaffer]

My partner addressed that. Initially, as we mentioned, we were introduced to Mr. Gillani on the basis that he wanted us to do a review on this technology. We were never asked to do a formal.... In the end, we never did a formal review. We were never paid for it. There was no--

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Okay. Great. Thank you.

So you're telling me that the Wright Tech system was not one of the three proposals that you put forward?

[Rahim Jaffer]

I don't think so.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Was that one of the three? Was the Wright Tech system one of the three proposals that you put forward to Mr. Jean in the executive summary page?

[Patrick Glémaud]

Look, our position has always stayed the same. Our position has always been that we did not submit any application or any demand for funding. You see--

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Could you just tell me whether Wright Tech was one of those three proposals? It's a simple question.

[Patrick Glémaud]

I went back and checked my e-mails. I was able to check: two different proposals were submitted, and in those two proposals, Wright Tech was not one of them.

I don't know if Wright Tech has been--

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

There were three.

[Patrick Glémaud]

Well, look, I have a copy--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Order.

Can you say yes or no, you do not know that the Wright Tech proposal was part of it?