Government Operations Committee on May 31st, 2010

[Joe Jordan]

My understanding at the time, which was reflected in the document I developed--it was a cut and paste, and we were seeking funding from a number of sources--was that it was a request for information about whether or not this new program covered any aspects of the construction of photovoltaic solar projects.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I just need clarification. When you said “at the time”, did you mean at the time it was submitted or at the time it came out in the media?

[Joe Jordan]

At the time it was submitted, is the only recollection I have. When it came out in the media.... It was presented as an application?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I understood that you said you didn't realize anything had been submitted on behalf of your company--

[Joe Jordan]

Absolutely not.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

--at any time. Maybe it was a misunderstanding.

We'll have to go into it next time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

We'll now go to Mr. Martin for eight minutes.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon, Joe, Milfred, and David.

I'd like to start with a comment you made in your opening remarks, Joe, that I find interesting. We're not really satisfied with it ourselves.

You said you couldn't find any information about the program Mr. Glémaud was talking about on the website. You would think that if it were a multi-hundred-million-dollar program there would be some point of access for the general public to at least find what it was about, the criteria, and how an interested company might apply. Do you find that unusual?

[Joe Jordan]

Well, to be fair, I didn't look. The thing is, I didn't know the program existed, but my meeting took place on June 16, so that was about two weeks after it was announced. I did a search after the fact and I think it was announced up north at the end of May. Subsequently, I didn't bother going and looking, because in my view an infrastructure program historically is one-third, one-third, and one-third, and they may introduce a private sector component.

But the whole thing just didn't make any sense, because you're not going to be able to build a facility with federal dollars in Ontario and hook up to the grid unless the Ontario Power Authority gives you the proper approvals, and that's about a two-and-a-half- to three-year process.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

So the type of shovel-ready terminology they used.... Even in the proposal that they mentioned your company in, it says, “The project is 'shovel-ready,' and the proponent intends to start building as soon as a contribution agreement is entered into...”. This is for 750 acres of solar panels in Brockville. It's just not plausible, then, is it, that this would qualify?

[Joe Jordan]

Well, under RESOP, which was the only program we had as an anchor because they hadn't announced FIT--but the rules were the same under FIT--10 megawatts was the maximum individual contract you could build, and that's about a 70-acre footprint.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Right. And this is 50 megawatts at 750?

[Joe Jordan]

Right.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay.

One of the frustrations we have is that we tried to get Brian Jean to come to this committee to answer some of these questions. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Transportation and Infrastructure seemed to be the gatekeeper to this whole program, this phantom program.

Frankly, it wasn't just you who had never heard of it; nobody had ever heard of it. It didn't exist on any website. It was only a few well-connected Conservatives who knew the secret handshake who could get access to this big fund, frankly. So it's one of our frustrations that Brian Jean said, “No, I'm not going to come to your committee.”

So then we're calling his senior bureaucrats, who were e-mailing back and forth. We've now learned that they're not going to be allowed to come to the committee, that only ministers will attend, so we don't know who's going to end up in that chair.

But were you aware that there was a host of e-mails going back and forth in support of your proposal? I call it “your proposal” because your company names are on this proposal.

[Joe Jordan]

Absolutely not--no idea that was taking place.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It does seem odd to me that on the basis of one and a half pages they have the deputy minister of infrastructure--the deputy minister herself, Yaprak, whose name I can never pronounce--and all these senior bureaucrats saying, “We need an answer on this. Rahim wants an answer by Friday because we're playing golf the week after, and I gotta be able to tell him whether it's a yes or a no.”

I mean, that's the kind of attention that this one-and-a-half-page flimsy proposal was getting. That's what irritates us as opposition MPs, Joe. As a former member of Parliament, I think you may be able to sympathize.

[Joe Jordan]

But to the bureaucrats' credit, they didn't take this thing seriously.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

They took it seriously enough--

[Joe Jordan]

I mean, they reviewed it.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

--to give it special status. I mean, on those 40 pages that you put together, I'm not sure they'd have bureaucrats saying, “We gotta get Joe an answer by Friday because I'm playing golf with him next weekend.”

It seemed that Rahim Jaffer, maybe by virtue of his marriage to a cabinet minister, or his connections, or whatever, was getting kid-glove treatment by the gatekeepers on this mystery program.

[Joe Jordan]

But at the end of the day he got a no; I mean, he may have gotten a polite no, but he got a no.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, I suppose.... That's small satisfaction, though. I mean, if that's the way business is done, then we all have a big problem, and legitimate companies like yours have a big problem, too, because these guys are playing fast and loose, it seems. They went to the Frank Moores school of lobbying or something...Fred Doucet.

Those are all the questions I have, actually, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay. Fair enough.

We'll go to the second round of questions.

Ms. Coady, for five minutes.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much.

I think I echo my colleague's concern about having the access. Mr. Jordan, I think you talked about your surprise at that availability of access. The fact that the bureaucrats did step in and make sure this didn't go any further is to their credit.

Would you care to comment on what you think...? I mean, we've talked a bit about the fact that your name was on a proposal. I think my colleague across the way asked how we make sure this doesn't happen in the future. He asked you something specifically: what do you think you need to do?

Would you care to comment on what you think government needs to do?

[Milfred Hammerbacher]

I would say that any kind of document given to the government clearly should have some kind of signature from the companies mentioned in the document. Without our signatures on it...that would probably have prevented this from going very far.