Evidence of meeting #26 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rahim Jaffer  Green Power Generation Corporation

9:25 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

Everyone at that table who I met knew, to my understanding, that I was no longer involved with the government. They knew I was defeated; they knew that it was just an odd occurrence that I had these cards. I qualified that with them.

I think Mr. Harvey even said during his testimony that he didn't even know I was married to a cabinet minister. So I did not at all promote the fact that I was a defeated MP. I remember that in some discussions I said I had some understanding, obviously, of the way government works. But by no means did I ever try to say that I exerted any influence otherwise than anyone else, other than being able to advise based on my own experience of what I had done when I was an MP and what I had experienced during my term.

So I would disagree and say that there was never any perception that there was any undue influence on my part. However, Mr. Gillani did set up this meeting--

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

I don't know if you want to run again, but for the time being, you are no longer a member of Parliament. It would be less complicated for you to admit that you were involved in illegal lobbying. Do you believe that you lobbied illegally?

9:25 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

Absolutely not.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

No? Can you give me the complete list of ministers or parliamentary secretaries you met with as part of your duties?

9:25 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

You mean according to my business, if I'm clear?

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Yes. In my book, it's about your role as an illegal lobbyist and the fact that you were given Web site addresses. Give me the list of ministers you met with. You will perhaps tell us that all you talked about was the weather. If the ministers you met with had the time to simply talk about the weather, that means they aren't busy enough, in my opinion. They should be in charge of two or three departments, but that is another issue.

Give me the list of ministers who gave you privileged access to the government.

9:25 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

Well, there is no list, Mr. Guimond. I—

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Give us the names of the ministers you met with.

9:25 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

As I mentioned to you earlier, I have met with ministers, I have met with MPs, I met with many people after being defeated—never for business; usually it was for pleasure. The odd one that I did—

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Oh, it was for pleasure.

In its June 5 issue, Le Quotidien from the Saguenay published the following: “The minister admitted earlier this week that Mr. Jaffer had called him in August to discuss a project to install solar panels on top of government buildings.”

You called him to talk about that. Is that lobbying? Do all people involved in projects using solar panels have that kind of access to Christian Paradis?

9:25 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

Well, as I said, Mr. Paradis wanted to know what business I was involved with—he and I were friends, obviously, when I served as an MP. I did ask him about what process—

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Mr. Guimond, you have 30 seconds left.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

I just want to tell you that if I have more time—

9:25 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

But there wasn't any lobbying done, Mr. Guimond. I wasn't paid on behalf of anybody to talk to him.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

If that is not lobbying, I will move on to the following people, if I have any time left: Lynn Yelich, Minister of State for Western Economic Diversification; Jim Prentice, Minister of the Environment; John Baird, Minister of Transport; Brian Jean; Tony Clement, Minister of Industry; Gary Goodyear, Minister of State for Science and Technology.

The ministers were forced to admit that they had spoken to you over the phone or had contact with you. And you were trying to get us to believe that you weren't lobbying? That doesn't hold water. You had privileged access to the Conservative cabinet because you had served as the President of the Conservative National Caucus.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you, Mr. Guimond.

9:25 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

I don't know if there was a question there, Madam Chair, at the end.

I'd like, if I could, just to clarify one thing. As I mentioned, I'm being accused here of doing illegal lobbying. There is one person who will determine whether or not that's true and that's the Commissioner of Lobbying, who I understand is conducting a review of all our business activities. We've been very open to work with her and provide her with any documentation she may need to conclude her review. I don't take this lightly, these challenges he's saying, without any proof, that I've done illegal lobbying.

I look forward to seeing the report by the commissioner. She will determine that.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Fair enough. Thank you.

Mr. Warkentin.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Jaffer, the difficulty with our situation today is that you came before and gave testimony, and what has been consistent in the testimony we've heard subsequent is that almost everybody has had at least one thing to contradict the testimony you've provided.

In every case, or in many cases, there's been individual testimony that's either overtly saying something different from you or else saying it's not quite the way you clarified it or that you stated things before our committee. The difficulty is that when we find out on the little things that there are inconsistencies in the testimony, it's tough to believe any of the testimony. I guess that's the difficulty for committee members.

I don't want to get really frustrated at the moment because I think there are some things we need to go through. We need to go through the testimony you provided and the testimony that we heard from subsequent people. I don't know if there's any clarification that you can bring to this committee before we move forward and finish the hearings.

We understand there's no money that came from the government and went to you or to other members. We have no evidence of that. That's the first point. I think it's clear.

But there are questions with regard to the testimony you provided our committee. You have a responsibility to give us the truth, the whole truth, and I believe nothing but the truth. The testimony you've provided up until this point I believe has broken the trust with your former colleagues and has broken the trust with your former constituents. I believe you've also generally broken trust with Canadians as a result of the testimony you've provided.

There have been issues of business cards where you have unequivocally said.... You castigated Mr. Martin for asking the question; you dismissed it as being simply a story that was written in The Toronto Star. Then we had provided to this committee the actual business card--your member of Parliament business card--with nothing scribbled out or nothing altered on the business card. So that was one demonstration.

We heard from Mr. Gillani. In fact, while you said that after a couple of meetings you felt the business relationship wouldn't go any further and that it had ended, we heard from him that there was a contract in place and that the relationship, as far as he understood, was continuing. As a matter of fact, he described for us plans you had with him to travel to China for business.

We continue to hear these things.

The last time you were here, Mr. Jaffer, I asked you what seemed to be an insignificant question, but it was something I felt was important to fully understand. According to news stories, you had described on your personal website that you could help secure government support for businesses. You denied that through the majority of that meeting. When I finally was able to get a copy of the website, a cached copy of the website, it was as clear as day that that in fact had happened.

As soon as the news story came out originally, I actually tried to find your website. I couldn't find it. It had been taken down.

Mr. Jaffer, in your letter you read today, which we got a couple of days ago, you said you had inadvertently said this, that you didn't know about this website. You dismissed it as simply being a long lost memory.

I guess my question would be, who took down the website the day after the news story ran?

9:30 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

I know you covered a number of issues there. Would you just like me to answer the last one?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Let's start with that one, and then we'll maybe go through the other ones systematically.

9:30 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

Okay. Just to be clear, you're asking me who...that personal website, the Rahim--

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

The personal website that was described in the news story. The day after the news story ran I couldn't find that website. Obviously it had been taken down. Who took it down? Who instructed that to be taken down?

9:30 a.m.

Green Power Generation Corporation

Rahim Jaffer

Well, it would have been me because that was my website.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

You took it down. Okay.