Government Operations Committee on Feb. 1st, 2011

[Kevin Page]

On a few occasions, going back to the summer of 2009...because again, as parliamentary budget officers we need to make projections for it both on the revenue side and the spending side. So even before the 2010 budget, we asked for planned reference levels by department so we could provide to you what we think is a better quality of expenditure forecast. We were told, prior to the 2010 budget, that we would not be entitled to get planned reference levels. It would be a cabinet confidence.

And then post-2010 budget, when we looked at the budget and we saw that there were elements of spending there, particularly with respect to restraint in terms of this operational amount of about $55 billion that we're freezing, we wanted to know what was included in that component. Again, we also, subsequently in that context, asked again for reference-level information so we could assess risk from a fiscal perspective and from a service-level perspective.

Then, of course, this committee as well, I know, tried to get similar information to look at operational freeze and was told it was a cabinet confidence.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Coady.

Just for a point of clarification, before I ask Madam Bourgeois, you said that subsequent to the issuance of your report you received information from Corrections Canada. I suppose that begs the issue as to whether that would change your analysis.

I'll leave other colleagues to ask that question, if that's of relevance to them, but it may well be important. I just highlight that for other colleagues.

Ms. Bourgeois, you have eight minutes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Page, gentlemen, good day. It is always a pleasure to have you here.

I would like to get back to the information you gave my colleague.

At your first appearance before this committee, last April, you said that “from a service delivery perspective, we need departmental strategies for savings” to know whether services will be provided, “service level standards”, because quality may vary, “and fully loaded costs for program activities for affected departments”. That was on April 12. You did not have the information at that time.

You came back before us on October 5 and said that the operating budget freeze measures announced in budget 2010 were somewhat unclear. You still did not have that information. The committee passed a motion calling on the government to provide you those figures.

On December 2, you reappeared before our committee. Despite the motion, you had yet to obtain all the information you needed to do your work, so you were unable to provide this information to us, nor to the House of Commons. It was very important for us, as committee members, to understand the degree of risk, given the budget freeze. You pointed this out, in fact. You said you were going to try another method.

I gather that following today's appearance and the tabling of your report, few organizations considered the operating budget freeze in their human resources planning nor have they devised a strategy to mitigate the potential impact of this freeze.

Is this correct? These people do not have a strategic plan?

[Kevin Page]

Exactly.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Moreover, if I am not mistaken, you were expecting the agencies to raise quite a fuss, in their human resources plan, about the operating budget freeze and resulting staff cuts.

Is that correct?

[Kevin Page]

That's correct.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Today, as you did when you tabled your report, you have come to tell us that at this point, the committee cannot produce an adequate report on the freeze on departmental budget envelopes. Furthermore, we cannot advise our colleagues in the House about what is happening to our taxes, in other words the money the government levies from each and every citizen of Canada. That is what you have come before us to say.

Is that correct?

[Kevin Page]

Yes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

This is really important, because Canadian citizens expecting services do not know whether they will receive them. They do not know whether these will be quality services. They do not know what the risks may be.

We were saying that, over the last ten years, the Auditor General of Canada has constantly been asking the various government departments to develop strategies to avoid these risks. Is that correct?

[Kevin Page]

It is very important to assess risks.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Your appearance here today is very important, just like the words that you have just uttered.

This means that there is a small group of individuals who are deciding on behalf of Canadian and Quebeckers. Is that correct?

[Kevin Page]

Parliamentarians decide.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Page, do you believe officials were ordered not to disclose anything or do you believe this lack of transparency is the result of poor planning due to the incompetence of our public servants? Why is it that we do not have these figures?

[Kevin Page]

I know that the officials are competent.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Very well, I understand your response.

You worked for 25 years within the public service. Would you say that this is a situation you've never encountered or is it a recurring problem? Have you ever experienced this before?

[Kevin Page]

No, but I believe it is possible.

In the 150-page Seventh Report to Canadians on Canada's Economic Action Plan, there is a strategy for Budget 2009, which sets out the distribution of funds for the various programs, provides good analyses examining the economic impact, as well as the impact on jobs.

We need to see the same degree of transparency for austerity programs as well, not just for stimulus programs.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

The average Canadian or Quebecker is not going to go through the books to find strategies. People will expect elected representatives or even the Parliamentary Budget Officer to explain to them what is going on. Well, you are unable to do this. So are we, as members, as we do not have the figures. This a rather unusual situation, isn't it?

[Kevin Page]

Yes, but as you said, to assess risks, it is important to understand the global plan, the global strategy. We must also examine the important issues within all departments.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Excuse me, but should we simply be relying on a minister's word to understand the global strategy? We cannot check to see whether the minister, the departments or the officials implement the government strategy or the minister's strategy. This is meaningless.

This may be a sham, as we have seen before, or it may simply be a strategy to show that something is getting done. However, we are unable to look into that. Is that correct?

[Kevin Page]

Yes, and if the President of Treasury Board says that the strategy is simply a matter of attrition, we can examine that. That said, in our report, when we examine the human resources plan for the ten major departments, it is impossible to say that there is an attrition plan.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I understand.

I have a final question. In your report, and you repeated that this morning, you suggest that the committee invite deputy ministers to come and explain the specific impact this freeze on departmental budget envelopes will have on staff and on programs.

First off, you understand that we cannot hear from all deputy ministers and all departments, as we have limited time. Moreover, if these people do not provide you with the information, how can they provide us to it?

[Kevin Page]

I think that, on the issue of risks, it is possible to assess attrition in the major departments. It is also possible for the Parliamentary Budget Officer to continue to assess a number of plans, like human resources plans. We can continue to check to see whether there is a plan to create savings.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, sir.

[Kevin Page]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Holder, for eight minutes, please.