Government Operations Committee on Nov. 20th, 2012

[Christine Walker]

Yes.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

—now managed by the Treasury Board Secretariat for those agencies.

[Christine Walker]

That's correct.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you. It makes sense.

I have two questions arising out of your opening presentation.

I'm curious about the $91.4 million for IRAP, which helps to meet a budget measure. Could you elaborate on the purpose of that additional investment? I presume that this is new funding, and those are new dollars. Is that correct?

[Alister Smith]

That is new funding, and I'll ask one of my colleagues to elaborate on the specifics of that new funding.

[Bill Matthews]

That program is not a new program, but to my recollection this is new funding.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

It's $91.4 million for IRAP.

[Bill Matthews]

Yes, it is new funding, if I recall correctly. I'm just going to turn to my colleague to see if she can...

Can we maybe look for that while you ask your next question?

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

That's fine. IRAP is such an important, effective program that I would encourage you to find any additional funding you could.

My last question—I was sort of curious and intrigued by this—is about a $1.2 billion decrease in forecast interest on unmatured debt. Again, I'd like some elaboration here. It sounds as though the government as well has been a victim, if you will, of bond markets, and that this has affected the government's bottom line. Is that essentially what's happened here? I'm curious to know from a financial and investment perspective what has occurred here.

[Alister Smith]

I'll turn to Bill here, but just to start, we take these estimates every year from the Department of Finance. They're not really part of the supps package per se, in terms of requests to Parliament, but we reflect any changes in interest, for example, from the Department of Finance passively. We don't do the work ourselves on that; they provide that information to us.

Bill, you may want to elaborate more.

[Bill Matthews]

The interest expense on public debt includes everything from regular debt as well as pensions and long-term liabilities, so it is very much influenced by those large numbers.

The government's debt mix, as Mr. Smith has already mentioned, is a finance issue. It is a mix of short-term and long-term borrowings. What they've done is simply updated their forecast here. I believe the reason for the decrease is the longer-term projections for interest rates are now a bit lower than was originally forecast, so that's why they've adjusted their forecasts.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay, great.

[Bill Matthews]

I think Sally now has the answer for you on the previous question.

[Sally Thornton]

On the IRAP issue, in the Budget 2012 announcement they announced $110 million a year in ongoing new funding to expand the National Research Council's program. They're seeking access to $91 million this year. The program is to provide funding and advisory services to small and medium-sized enterprises, as you indicated, and specifically to increase contributions to firms for projects that support commercialization, to expand advisory services through the hiring of industrial technology advisers who will then provide business and technical expertise to the small and medium-sized enterprises, and to launch a service to improve access to information for small and medium-sized enterprises concerning government programs, specialized research facilities, technical and business experts, and international business opportunities.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you for that clarification.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Peter.

For the NDP, we have Linda Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know you are doing your best to respond to the questions that I and my colleague have been asking about the specifics of dollars saved by the cuts to the civil service. I mean, it is clearly the mandate of the Treasury Board—it's right in the statute—to deal with estimates, expenditures, reviews of annual long-term expenditures, and human resources management, and the decision has been made of a certain percentage across the board in cuts. The one thing the Treasury Board appears to have voluntarily decided is that they have delegated away their mandate to track, overall, the dollar figures with the cuts. Given that we don't seem to be getting....

I will ask the question once more. The minister has stated publicly that he has already achieved a little bit more than half of his target in the cuts toward the deficit. Therefore, one presumes he knows the dollar figure that all those cuts represent. I guess the logical question for us....

It's our duty. It's why our committee was established—to monitor spending and to review the estimates in detail. Given the timeline for the review of estimates and the tabling back in the House, we don't have the luxury of bringing in every department and agency to ask them individually about where they have made the cuts and what the dollar figure is.

I am going to ask once more: can you at least give us the detailed breakdown where in fact, clearly, if the minister says those cuts have been made, the decision must have been made? Those employees must have opted for one, two, or three, and therefore you should know what those dollar figures are. Can you provide those to us? At least for the employees, presumably if half the cuts have been made, they have opted.

[Alister Smith]

Let me try again, because maybe we are just misunderstanding the question.

As a result of the spending reviews, departmental budgets have been reduced, and reduced in future, so their reference levels have already been reduced. Next year's reference level will be reduced by a certain amount, and year three as well. They have correspondingly made plans to reduce the number of positions in the department.

Employees are informed that they're affected. Some will end up losing their jobs. They have certain options available to them. We're going through that process now under workforce adjustment, which is collectively bargained and which respects the rights of individuals to make certain choices.

As we go through that process and people opt, we will see exactly what categories people fall into. Some may decide to stay in the public service for a year on surplus to try to find another job. Others may decide to leave with a transition allowance. Some may go back to university or community college.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I understand all of that, but clearly some of them must have opted.

[Alister Smith]

Yes.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

So....

Mr. Chair, I regret to have to do this, but we don't seem to be getting this information. I think this information should be made available to us. It's our committee's responsibility to overview the estimates, so I am tabling the motion that the request go out again to the President of the Treasury Board to appear and to see if he can provide to us that detailed breakdown. We just simply don't have the ability to bring in every one of these departments and agencies to verify whether the cuts and the dollar figures match up.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

I think the motion is in order, given that you don't need to serve notice when it is subject matter that we're currently dealing with.

There is a motion on the floor that the minister be called to the committee.

You should know, as well, that the minister was invited to be here today. He was invited on September 25, or at the end of September; he was invited two months ago. He notified us that he was unable to attend.

The committee has dealt with the estimates four times in this Parliament. Twice the minister came, once for supplementary estimates (B) for 2011-12 and once for supplementary estimates (C) for 2011-12. He did not attend for supplementary estimates (A) for 2012-13 or for supplementary estimates (B) today.

There is a motion on the floor. It's in order.

All those in favour of calling the minister to attend to defend supplementary estimates (B)?

(Motion negatived)

The motion does not succeed.

You have about a minute left, Linda, if you would like to continue.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay.

Well, I tried. I guess I'm puzzled as to why that information can't be forthcoming.

In the information you have kindly provided to us, a summary of what's provided in supplementary estimates (B)—which is really helpful—there's mention of $162 million combined between Health Canada...and I notice it still says “Indian Affairs”, but I presume you mean Aboriginal Affairs, or is it still legally called Indian Affairs?

[Alister Smith]

That's what it is legally.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

They have to change that by law.

Presumably the government is going to push through its safe drinking water legislation, and they have undertaken to consult with the first nations on the drafting of the implementing regulations. That bill also provides for each one of the 600 first nations to develop its own safe drinking water regime. Does that $162 million cover that as well?