Government Operations Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I am very pleased to see you.

I just wanted to mention that as a larger outsourcing question—and we were doing an outsourcing study—it's really important to understand whether the Government of Canada is using consultants too often. However, this is not that study. This is not a general discussion about whistle-blowing or consultancy. Although I would love to hear from you on whistle-blowing—and we have—because I think you have a lot of very valuable things to say about it, this is supposed to be about McKinsey. I have to ask some questions about McKinsey only, because that's what we were supposed to be here for and what you were called in for.

Professor Thomas, do you have any non-public information that you wish to offer this committee about the government's relationship with McKinsey?

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

No. As per my disclaimer at the start, I have none.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You were not involved in the negotiation of the government contracts with McKinsey?

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

No.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You were not there to observe how those contracts were carried out?

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

No.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You really have no information other than what the entire public in Canada of 38 million people has about the government's specific relationship with McKinsey. Is that correct?

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

Correct.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Duguay, I will ask you the same question. Do you have any non-public information about the government's relationship with McKinsey?

[Dr. Benoit Duguay]

I will simplify my answer: The only information I have is public information.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay.

I have another question for you.

You spoke about a difference in diligence. I believe you said that McKinsey's diligence was different than that of other companies that do business with the government.

Do you have proof?

[Dr. Benoit Duguay]

I do not think I said anything along those lines today. I'm sorry to contradict you.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

No, it's not that I want—

That is what I heard. I would like you to have the opportunity to clarify your comments.

Do you have any proof or confidential information that that is the case?

I do not believe that you have that information, but I would like to know.

[Dr. Benoit Duguay]

I have no information about any contract signed by the government with a consulting company. To my knowledge, I never said that the government had treated any company differently.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

That's fine. That is all I wanted to know.

You spoke about a culture of secrecy.

Can you confirm that that is the case not just for McKinsey, but for all companies that also compete with McKinsey? That is a standard practice at major consulting companies.

[Dr. Benoit Duguay]

That depends on the level of secrecy required. Yes, we can say that several consulting firms will require a certain secrecy. In my opinion, it is not to the extent we see with McKinsey.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Have you dealt with McKinsey?

Do you have direct information or are you relying on public information?

[Dr. Benoit Duguay]

As I said before, my comments are based solely on the information in this book and what I can read publicly.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Hutton, to save me the rigamarole of going through it—

[David Hutton]

I have no special or direct knowledge or insight into what McKinsey is doing at present.

On your point about whistle-blowing, whistle-blowing is directly relevant to the study you're currently doing, because—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

It's the overall study. It's very relevant to the overall study.

[David Hutton]

It's relevant to this study, because if we had free access to the information that employers in the trenches have, we would know a whole lot more about the work McKinsey is currently doing and has recently done in Canada. The committee would be a whole lot better informed and wouldn't have to rely on people like me to suppose what might be going on.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

But you would agree that.... I take your point, and we would have to then assume that there were whistle-blowers, because there was something that was wrong that we don't have any information on, but the same would be true about any supplier. There's no difference between McKinsey and any other supplier, which is why I'm saying it's about the larger issue.

[David Hutton]

Fair enough.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Can I ask just one more question?

I thought you made an interesting point about U.S. Steel. My understanding was that U.S. Steel was one key study you were looking at with respect to McKinsey's relationship with a private company that engaged McKinsey. Of course, McKinsey has 10,000 customers, and it may do very well on certain projects and very badly on others. Nobody is here defending McKinsey as being the greatest company in the world. That would be correct, right?