Government Operations Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm happy to begin that answer, but then I will yield the floor to Ms. O'Gorman, who is the president of the CBSA.

First there is an internal discussion about the business case needs for the organization, which in this instance was the CBSA. Once those are articulated, a number of criteria are then established. From there a process is commenced, all consistent with PSPC's processes and CBSA's processes.

Perhaps to expand for a moment, I will turn it over to Ms. O'Gorman.

[Erin O'Gorman, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you.

I would add generally that based on business requirements, the CBSA will undertake contracts that may be sole-sourced, may be competitively tendered or may use supplier arrangements that have been set up by PSPC.

In this case, one of the contracts was competitively tendered. Another used the mandatory benchmarking standing offer that had three companies qualified under it. The other two were national master standing offers or supplier arrangements. In other words, they were pre-qualified by PSPC, and CBSA drew down on those. For two of the contracts, CBSA was the contracting authority, and for two of the contracts, PSPC was the contracting authority.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Minister, on February 1 of this year, Dominic Barton told the committee, “McKinsey never provides policy advice. They're executing what government wants to do.” Do you agree with this statement?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I can tell you that the processes by which the CBSA awards contracts are on the basis of either the operational needs or the policy priorities that are set by the government. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the CBSA to first allocate the resources that are necessary to make good on those priorities or those operational needs, and where it cannot, to then look beyond government for the additional resources or capabilities that are required to make good on them. That is precisely what was done in the instances of the four contracts that I've outlined.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

If I can get this in, has McKinsey made any policy recommendations to your department?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

No, to the best of my knowledge, but I want to ensure that Ms. O'Gorman also has an opportunity to answer as well.

[Erin O'Gorman]

The nature of the contracts that the CBSA undertook with McKinsey related to transformational projects and advice: looking at the legacy IT systems, other countries' moving towards digital borders, increasing travel volumes, increasing revenue collection and the CBSA's current posture of being not in the digital space as much as it needs to be to keep up with those pressures.

The nature of the contracts with McKinsey were of a transformational business process nature, not a policy nature.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Who defines the bid requirements for proposals that are published by government? What safeguards are in place?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I will begin and then again turn over the floor to Ms. O'Gorman.

It's important for the committee to understand that the business case needs are determined by the CBSA in this instance. From those needs, the CBSA is then able to set the criteria by which a bid process will be conducted. With regard to that latter stage, there is close collaboration between the CBSA and PSPC to ensure that the CBSA is following all of the appropriate policies, protocols and procedures.

I'll turn it over to Ms. O'Gorman.

[Erin O'Gorman]

As the minister said, the CBSA set out general requirements that became a statement of work for the work that needed to be done. There was a contracting authority and a technical authority. In two of the cases, the CBSA played both of those roles in different parts of the organization, and in two of the contracts, PSPC was the contracting authority, so it would have received the proposal and the requirements from—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you. That is our time.

Ms. Vignola, you have six minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, Ms. O'Gorman and Mr. Gallivan, thank you for being here.

Minister, within a department, when it comes to strategic plans or long-term vision, who makes the final decisions?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for the good question, Ms. Vignola.

Firstly, it is the government that determines the priorities of all the agencies that fall under my portfolio. In terms of the Canada Border Services Agency, CBSA, that is a mandate that I share with its president, but it is CBSA that is responsible for the implementation process.

I don't know if Ms. O'Gorman wants to add anything.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I would like to add that the decisions in question were to address operational challenges. We looked at what other countries were doing in terms of border services and digital transformation. These were operational decisions made by the CBSA.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

All right.

As I understand it, when it comes to creating a strategic plan, the minister and yourself are the ones who decide on the strategic plan and objectives for the next few years.

Is that right?

[Erin O'Gorman]

That's right.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Minister, if I may, I'm going to go back to when you were Minister of Immigration.

I imagine that, from one Immigration minister to another, there is a certain transfer of files and general information.

Am I wrong?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's right. The new Minister of Immigration and I collaborate very well. He is a colleague. So when he asks me questions, I'm there to help him.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, when he came two weeks ago, most of the time he would answer that he wasn't the one who was there at the time. You were the one who was there, so I'm going to ask you the questions that we put to the new minister.

You say you want to welcome 500,000 new permanent residents. Some are already here, some have applied from abroad. What is needed to accommodate them? What do we need to consider?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's another very good question, Ms. Vignola.

Before determining its immigration targets, the government must consider certain factors.

First, there is the economy and its needs. This decision is the result of consultation with all the provinces and territories, including Quebec, with which we have a very good relationship.

Then there is our goal of family reunification.

Finally, we have a category for resettling asylum seekers and refugees, which is really important. So different factors are taken into account before determining immigration targets, but the decision is made by the government.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Perfect.

What I was hoping you would talk about is the strategic planning needed to accommodate 500,000 new residents, specifically with regard to housing.

I'm not just talking about economics, because a happy worker is a worker who can not only put bread on the table, but also find suitable housing. If he falls ill, he must be able to get proper hospital care. His children must be able to attend a school that is not overcrowded.

So we need to invest in schools, in hospitals and in building housing. We need a long-term vision. As it happens, all of these areas are the responsibility of Quebec and the other Canadian provinces.

So you're saying that Canada, like the McKinsey company—that's what Mr. Dominic Barton said when he appeared before this committee—has thought first and foremost about the economy and productivity, before thinking about the basic needs of these 500,000 people who enter the country every year. This number is in fact a minimum, because the target is 1.25% of the total population.

What is the strategic plan for receiving these people? Do we welcome them by asking the provinces to cope somehow, while demonstrating that they are not capable of managing the situation?

The cause of the problem is that the basic needs of these people were not taken into consideration before letting them in.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. Vignola, you are right, this decision is important and essential for our economy today, and even in the long term. It concerns the challenges of our country's demographics. That is why we must not only set targets and figures. We also need to invest on the ground to support the creation of infrastructure and housing, as well as other services to facilitate the settlement of new immigrants.

This is work we are doing in concert with Quebec and the other provinces and territories.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Johns, you have six minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

Minister, we know that Canadians get better value when programs and services are delivered by the members of the public service and not by outside consultants. We know that outsourcing to companies like this means less transparency, lower accountability and a loss of institutional knowledge. We know that when work is outsourced, the skills and expertise leave the public service when the contract ends. The real costs of outsourcing are much higher than the dollars and cents. We lose accountability, we erode capacity and it hurts our ability to retain staff.

Are you able to commit today to reducing your department's reliance on consulting contracts and to boosting the role of profession public servants in delivering services to Canadians?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I want to make a couple of quick points, Mr. Johns.

First, when it comes to value for dollar, the decisions that are taken around the awarding of external contracts are taken objectively. It is only when internal resources are incapable—