Government Operations Committee on May 31st, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 69 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, the mighty OGGO.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, May 1, 2023, the committee is meeting on the study of the subject matter of the 2023-24 main estimates, and pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the House on Monday, May 29, 2023, the committee is also meeting on the supplementary estimates (A), 2023-24.

Before we start, I want to note the absence of our vice-chair, Mr. Jowhari. He is at the university graduation of his son, Meilaud Jowhari. On behalf of OGGO, congratulations, Meilaud. I'm sure you're watching us.

I will quickly go over a few housekeeping items before we turn things over to the minister. We require unanimous consent.

On June 5, we have our nine departments here regarding the McKinsey documents. Do we have unanimous consent to provide them with two and a half minutes each for opening statements?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

I have one last UC motion if the committee agrees. ISED—I'm giving credit to them—have turned over all of their documents unredacted. They were required to appear because they hadn't done it in time, but since they've turned everything over unredacted, I request UC to excuse them from appearing.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wonderful, colleagues. Thanks very much.

Minister Fortier, when you're done vandalizing our room, we'll turn things over to you for five minutes, please.

Welcome back to OGGO.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It feels like the committee has given me VIP treatment. I am pleased to be here today.

To begin, I wish to acknowledge that I am speaking to you on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

I am very pleased to provide an overview of the Main Estimates and Supplementary Estimates (A).

Across government this year, the Main Estimates set out proposed spending of $443 billion for 129 organizations. That includes $198 billion in voted appropriations and $235 billion in statutory expenditures. As the committee members know, statutory expenditures are presented for information purposes only. Most of the expenditures are transfer payments to other orders of government, to other organizations and to individuals. They represent roughly 60% of expenditures, or $261.4 billion.

Some significant changes to statutory expenditures are planned for the 2023-2024 fiscal year, including increases in transfer payments for such things as seniors' benefits, the Canada Health Transfer and equalization payments, as well as increases for climate action incentive payments. Of the 129 organizations that need funding, 10 are seeking more than $5 billion in voted expenditures, including Indigenous Services Canada, National Defence and Employment and Social Development Canada.

For the main estimates this year, in response to feedback from the chair, we added a new online annex on Treasury Board central votes. I would also mention that most of the measures from Budget 2023 will be reflected in future estimates documents.

It's important to distinguish the purpose of each document. The budget allocates money in the fiscal framework for initiatives, and the estimates seek authority from Parliament to spend money. The main estimates are not meant to approve every item announced in the budget, because it takes time to design implementation plans that ensure good value for taxpayers' funds.

Turning to my department, the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat is seeking a total of $8.9 billion in funding. Our central votes make up $8.6 billion of that, which is broken down as follows: $750 million for government contingencies; $71 million for government-wide initiatives; $3 billion for operating; $750 million for capital budget carry-forward; and $600 million for paylist requirements, such as parental or maternity leave and entitlements upon ending service or employment.

There is also approximately $3.4 billion to make payments under the public service pension, benefit, and insurance plans, including the employer's share of health, income maintenance and life insurance premiums.

The remaining amount—just under $313 million—supports the operation and activities of the department, such as decision-making support and oversight, greening government, regulatory reviews and digital initiatives.

I will briefly turn to the supplementary estimates (A).

The Supplementary Estimates (A) provide information on the $20.5 billion in planned voted expenditures and highlight the $1.4 billion in planned statutory expenditures.

That includes the following: $13 billion for agreements and programs for indigenous groups, including farm benefits claims, the Specific Claims Settlement Fund and out-of-court settlements; $2.6 billion to support improvements to health care, in particular bilateral agreements with the provinces and territories; and $997 million for the Housing Acceleration Fund, in order to increase housing supply in Canada.

In closing, I would like to thank the committee for all its work on the estimates. I also want to thank the members of my team who are with me to answer your questions.

I am ready to answer questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Minister. You finished with two seconds to spare. I appreciate that.

Mrs. Kusie, you have six minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today, Madam Minister.

On April 19 of this year, we had 155,000 public servants go on strike. Of course, this deeply impacted services all across Canada, for everything from passport delivery to, I think most significantly, tax returns. People were very concerned about filing their taxes, and many were concerned about when they would be processed and when they would get their returns back from their tax filings.

Your negotiations started in June 2021. Why could you and the Treasury Board not come to an agreement when you had two full years to do so?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for your question.

I would also like to thank Canadians, of course, for being patient and for understanding that the negotiation process is necessary. We started negotiations with the Public Service Alliance of Canada, and it can take anywhere from 16 months to two years to reach an agreement. We worked very hard on that with PSAC.

It's important also to know that when we offered our first monetary offer last May 2022, PSAC chose to leave the table, as they no longer wanted to negotiate. We encouraged them to come back to the table, and when that happened last April, we found a way to do mediation. As you know, we continued to make efforts at the table, knowing that PSAC had decided to strike. We respect the strike decision that they made, but we did get to an agreement. I was very proud, and I'm waiting to ratify it.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

Can you tell me...? We had an almost two-week strike. Very many services came to a standstill, including passports, as I said. Seniors were worried about getting their tax returns. Can you tell Canadians and Canadian taxpayers today how much that two-week strike cost Canadians? How much did 155,000 public servants on strike cost Canadians, please?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you again, and I do want to thank Canadians for their patience.

As we know, we did have some essential services that were possible. Some of those essential services were, for example, EI and veterans supports. As you mentioned, passports were not considered essential, except if it was a humanitarian reason, and as we know, it takes a lot to be able to demonstrate that, so I have to say that we concentrated on getting a good deal.

When the strike was over, I know that Minister Gould ensured all efforts were made to get back on track, and we are back on track with passports.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Did you get a good deal? I think Canadians are wondering whether you got a good deal.

I've read the PSAC summary, and for PSAC members, it's a 12% wage increase over four years, which is 12.6% compounded over four years, and a $2,500 pensionable lump-sum payment averaging 3.7% of salary. That's an average of $23,000 per public servant, and this excludes group-specific allowances as well as group-specific wage adjustments.

I think the question on every Canadian's mind right now is this: How much?

I'm very grateful that you reached these negotiations finally, and I look forward to their being ratified, but how much will this cost Canadians, Madam President? How much will this cost Canadians, please?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I believe we have a good deal that is reasonable for Canadians, and also—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

How much, please?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

—fair for public servants. It's an ongoing cost that is estimated at $1.3 billion a year.

We now have 10 tentative agreements. As you know, there are 28 agreements altogether with the core public service. Now that we have 10 tentative agreements that cover over 60% of employees, it's an additional cost of $1.8 billion a year. That represents the current negotiated offer on the table.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

It's $1.3 billion at a time where Canada is in an inflationary crisis, a cost-of-living crisis. That's quite a price tag, Madam President.

To continue with services, many services were impacted during the strike itself, as I said. Are there any backlogs in services, or are there services that are still not being delivered to Canadians as a result of this strike?

As my final questions that I'll put to you, which I hope you will have time to answer, will these services be delivered, and is there the expectation that we will not have another strike in the future, given the pending ratification of these negotiations and agreements?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

On the three questions you asked, first, the vote is happening right now and I expect that the PSAC will ratify—hopefully—that vote. It's happening as we speak, so let's look forward to a positive vote.

Second, as for services, I believe everything is back on track after the strike. As we know, some of the services were in backlog before we started the strike. At this time, I believe we are back in service from the effect of the strike.

With regard to the third question you asked, we did follow the public interest commission, which recommended a certain percentage, and that is the one we offered to public servants. I strongly believe that we also have to recognize that—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm sorry, Minister, but that is past our time. Perhaps we can get back to it.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'm sorry about that. I'm very interested in talking about collective bargaining.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks. Maybe you can answer the question with Mr. Bains.

Go ahead, Mr. Bains, for six minutes.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's a great idea.

Madam President, maybe you can finish your answer.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Well, I wanted to say that the most important thing is that we got to a tentative agreement that is reasonable for Canadians and also fair for public servants. I know that Canadians and public servants are the ones we have to concentrate on during this time.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

Budget 2023 commits to reducing government's reliance on outsourcing, which is largely focused on the IT space. As former PCO clerk Michael Wernick told the committee, we can't just cut spending on outsourcing: We must build capacity with the public service. Can you tell us a little bit about the digital talent strategy and how it will build or attract IT talent?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for that question.

We are transforming many of our services in the digital space right now. Talent is a challenge for both private and public sectors—attracting talent, building capacity—and, of course, working directly with stakeholders is a really important cornerstone of our approach.

We, the Government of Canada, have a digital talent strategy that is focused on designing approaches, tools, and processes to recruit, retain and develop top digital talent in the federal public sector. This strategy includes initiatives like creating an enterprise digital community culture, centralizing and prioritizing recruitment efforts, training and re-skilling existing digital talent, allowing for digital talent to work in modern ways from a technology and process perspective and working with industry on development opportunities like apprenticeships and short-term exchanges.

Another one is on collaborations, like the IT apprenticeship program for indigenous peoples, which helps address employment gaps for first nations, Inuit and Métis peoples in the IT field.

I have to also mention that this talent strategy is embedded into a digital ambition that the government has brought forward, which has four pillars. If you'd like to at some point to discuss that digital ambition, it's really important, because we will need to continue to transform our services in the digital space.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to go into housing.

We obviously have heard quite a bit about the pressures of housing for many Canadians. Indeed, in my city of Richmond, British Columbia, we've seen young professionals choosing to leave the city that they grew up in to find products that aren't available in the city. We're always looking to increase the types of homes that are available for the needs of anyone who is in a certain part of their life or their career. Can you please share with this committee what is being done in the supplementary estimates to support affordable housing for Canadians?