Evidence of meeting #80 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Ms. O'Gorman, has Botler been paid in full? Are there any outstanding invoices?
Also, are you aware of any allegations of wrongdoing against your department from other contractors, especially since this has been brought to light, outside of Botler?
4:15 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
It is my understanding that the individuals at Botler AI have been paid.
I am not aware of any other allegations. That being said, I did ask for an audit of contracting. I referred these to the RCMP and to a professional integrity investigation. I assume that both of those processes will follow the threads of any material that comes up in the course of those investigations.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Ossowski, since you left as the CBSA president, you've gone over to Pricewaterhouse Coopers. You've heard me complain about the outsourcing growing. It went from $29 million in 2011 to $93 million in 2021. Since you've taken over as managing director at Pricewaterhouse Coopers, can you talk about how much new business has been closed between Pricewaterhouse Coopers and the Government of Canada?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Chair, respectfully, I'm here to respond to the concerns raised about my testimony last year. It's nothing to do with Pricewaterhouse Coopers.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks, Mr. Johns.
We have Mr. Genuis for five minutes, please.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thanks, Chair.
Ms. O'Gorman, how long have you worked for the Government of Canada?
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
In 23 years, how many times have you referred files to the RCMP?
4:20 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I don't recall us ever referring a file to the RCMP.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay. Thank you.
This scandal is fairly simple for the public to understand. You have two people who run a company with zero other employees. They are hired by the government. They do no IT work. They subcontract the work and they get a big cut for themselves: over $11 million on ArriveCAN alone.
The government chose, for some reason, to hire these two middlemen, who did no IT work, to then hire someone else, and they got over $11 million in the process. You're talking a lot about processes and procedures and how we tighten the screws on all the processes.... Doesn't that miss the core point that this one obviously really stinks? Why did government officials think it was a good idea to give over $11 million to these two guys, who did no IT work, in exchange for their subcontracting services? To really get at the nub of the issue, Ms. O'Gorman, why do you think they were hired?
4:20 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I wasn't in the agency when they were hired.
My understanding is that they had a standing offer that had been competed and established through Public Services and Procurement—whether I'm using the proper term, “standing offer” or “supply arrangement”—for staff enhancements that the CBSA and other departments would use in order to—
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Let me jump in.
These guys had a great thing going, then, clearly. Stephanie and I could say, “Hey, we have an idea. We're going to open a firm in our garage and get hired by the government to do work that we're then going to pass on to someone else, and we're going to take 15% or 30% of it.” What stops any two Canadians from doing that?
4:20 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I'm seized with the contracting function in CBSA, and I have outlined how I'm addressing it—
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
But let's take a step back and understand how this can happen—
4:20 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
The questions that you raise relate to other departments that might be better placed to respond to that.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay, but clearly these two guys weren't just any two people. Clearly, they had access to someone or something that allowed them to get paid by the government to do nothing. Is that not a reasonable inference?
4:20 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Those are allegations that have come to light, to my knowledge, only recently, and I cannot comment on them.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
It just doesn't make sense, though, right? Would you agree that it doesn't make sense?
4:20 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
What doesn't make sense? I apologize.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
The fact that two people were paid over $11 million to do no work and subcontract.
4:20 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
The CBSA worked very closely with PSPC and all the rules governed by PSPC on all of these engagements.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Yes, but this is sort of process mumbo-jumbo. I think people would want to know that they got paid to do nothing. Why were they hired?
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Who made the decision? Let me ask that. Who made the decision?