Government Operations Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

You are trying to shirk responsibility today with this committee, indicating that this had nothing to do with the ArriveCAN investigation that we are currently seized with in this committee. Yet, GC Strategies, which we found was involved in the building of ArriveCAN and which received $11 million for sending a few emails that were over-linked into other companies, this company that is being investigated in a criminal investigation by the RCMP, is still being used across government.

You, as the procurement minister, have the authority to stop the use of this company which is being criminally investigated across government, and yet you are refusing to do so. You are allowing other departments that are under the purview of procurement to use GC Strategies, a company that is under criminal investigation.

Minister, how do you respond that you have not eliminated the use of GC Strategies across government, as you have the purview to do?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

First, I'll give a clarification. Second, I'll give an explanation.

The clarification is around Botler AI. As we've just mentioned, the contract through Botler AI had nothing to do with ArriveCAN. I think it's important to repeat that, because as members of the committee, you have the right to understand the matters and the facts.

In terms of clarification, I will turn to my officials, who are experts in the clear understanding of the allocation of contractual authorities and financial authorities, and the actual implementation of monitoring the contracts. I will ask—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I don't think we want to hear from authorities. I think Canadians want to hear from you that you will take responsibility for the use of this company, which is still allowed to be used across government. This is just completely unacceptable.

I will give you some more information, Minister. Perhaps you'll have a better response for Canadians to this.

GC Strategies reached out to the CBSA to create a relationship to sell Botler AI's technology and help it fulfill its obligations under Bill C-65. Let's make the connection. GC Strategies, which was used with the ArriveCAN app, is also being used within this contract. Instead of directly paying GC Strategies, the company it was in communication with, the CBSA decided to pay Dalian and Coradix to pay GC Strategies to pay Botler through an existing contract. This contract was valued at $21.2 million, and was informatics professional services.... It was also used, Minister, for ArriveCAN.

Does this contracting process concern you at all? If it does, what are you doing about it right now for Canadians?

This should be very concerning for you. This has seized meeting upon meeting of the government operations committee.

Please share with Canadians what actions you are taking right now—today—to ensure that we never have another RCMP investigation into this level of potential fraud with the government ever again.

Thank you, Minister.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you.

Again, all members of this committee expect and deserve clear information about what took place. Again, I want to point out that the matter under investigation by the RCMP is a matter of the contractual use of Botler AI on matters that had nothing to do with ArriveCAN. This is still an important matter, which has been brought to the attention of CBSA.

On what we can do within this department, I will turn to Deputy Minister Reza.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister, I appreciate you doing that, but again, I think Canadians want to hear from you, as the accountable minister here today.

I'm going to conclude, Chair, with this final question.

You may also be aware, Minister, that we've had senior public officials in this committee lie to this committee and lie to Canadians, and that's completely unacceptable. I want to ask you: Do you approve of your subordinates lying to this committee and lying to Canadians, Minister?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Again, I think we all want to be honest and clear to Canadians.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

They were not, so I hope you can be.

Thank you.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Mr. Chair, I don't want to control how this committee works. I'm here to serve and to provide appropriate information for the important work that you do, but when we hear that these are my subordinates...I'm sorry, but I'm not the minister of the CBSA. I would like to be the minister of everything. My responsibility is to be the minister of PSPC.

I have great officials with me who will be able and very pleased to provide you with the important information and clarity that you deserve in this particular committee. They are there for you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Minister.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Procurement reports to you, Minister.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We will go to Mr. Bains for six minutes, please.

Go ahead.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today.

Thank you to all of our members here who are joining you.

Thank you, again, for visiting British Columbia and taking the time to tour the Vancouver shipyard. As you know, it's very important. The maritime sector of British Columbia is extremely important to us. I want to take a moment just to thank you for joining us and taking some significant time to listen to the people at Seaspan about the work they're doing.

That leads into my first question. I know that earlier this year, you were with the Prime Minister at the Davie shipyard to announce it had finally been included in the national shipbuilding strategy. On November 15, you visited the Seaspan shipyards with me and the skilled workers to mark the major step toward the completion of the offshore oceanographic science vessel. This was an extremely important development for Canada's shipbuilding capacity.

Can you tell us what the long-term agreements also mean for the shipyards in terms of predictability and stability?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, MP Bains, and thank you indeed for hosting me when I was pleased to visit your riding. We were able to meet with the dedicated, hard-working workers at Seaspan. They were so pleased to tell us about what you just mentioned, the soon-to-be released OOSV, the offshore oceanographic science vessel, which is the largest and most modern science vessel ever constructed in Canada by the proud and hard-working workers of Seaspan. Many of their families live in your riding and we saw, and you saw, how grateful they are to the whole of the caucus around the Lower Mainland.

This is also pointing to the fact that the national shipbuilding strategy every year is supporting the jobs of about 20,000 workers in many places in Canada, including the smaller shipyards, which are not part of the three larger ones, to which we will be sending more work in the years to come. That also involves about $2.1 billion in additional GDP contributions because of their work. You heard, like me, the fact that they want to collaborate with the other two big shipyards, Irving and Davie, so we look forward to decades of work for the people in your riding and in many other places in Canada.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

We talk about some of the big three strategic partners, but there are also dozens of smaller shipyards and other small and medium-sized businesses in communities across the country that can contribute to the national shipbuilding strategy. Do you have any figures on the economic benefits derived from the contracts awarded to these SMEs?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Yes. Not only do we work really well and are grateful for the work that the larger shipyards—the three of them—do every day for the bigger ships, but we are also indirectly contributing to the growth of SMEs. About 5% in contract value of the work that is allocated to the larger shipyards ends up in small and medium-sized enterprises across Canada. That's in addition to the investments we are making to support the smaller shipyards like Heddle and Groupe Océan and many others across Canada, which are there also to support workers in communities. They also provide the necessary ship needs for the Coast Guard and the armed forces, which we'll be able to build on in the next decades.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I do want to get in a housing question. I met with the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association today, who recently commissioned a study from Deloitte, which found that bringing Canada's community housing stock to the OECD average by 2030 would boost economic productivity by a staggering 5.7% to 9.3%.

Can you inform the committee what PSPC is optimizing in our real property portfolio to create more affordable housing.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's an excellent question.

We do indeed need more affordable housing, in particular rental and social housing. For the last three decades, Canada has been lagging in the construction of these types of units. It's been for over three decades that this crisis has been building. That's why, since 2017, with the first ever national housing strategy, we have started to reverse that unfortunate trend. We will do that in part through the use of federal lands and buildings.

Just a few weeks ago, I was able to announce construction of about 2,800 units, many of them affordable, in the next few months, by the end of March, and 28,000 additional units in the next five years. That is twice as many as we have constructed in the last 30 years because of federal lands and buildings. We are speeding up the investments because we know these are needed by middle class and lower-income Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Bains.

Ms. Vignola, please for six.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here.

Mr. Minister, when you were president of the Treasury Board, was it incumbent upon you to negotiate the plan's transfer from Sun Life to Canada Life?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

You're asking me if I negotiated—

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Was the contract negotiated during your mandate?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

We actually dropped the contract because we had contract experts with us. The contract was negotiated by the department of which I am currently the minister.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

So Mrs. Anita Anand presided over it.

Is that correct?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Yes, because it goes back a few years.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

This summer, taxpayers got a nice surprise when you gave nearly $500 million to Irving Shipbuilding so it could update its yards to accelerate shipbuilding.

However, when we look at the date the ships were supposed to be built, we see that they were expected by 2032. We would have expected that this funding would make it possible to significantly advance the delivery dates. You said that this funding would allow Canada to take ownership of ships in the early 2030s. The early 2030s and 2032 are one and the the same to me.

How is granting this additional $500 million to the shipyard fair and equitable if you refuse to give the other shipyards equivalent support?

Are there no provisions in the agreements with the shipyards that require them to invest a portion of their profits in upgrading the shipyard?