Government Operations Committee on Jan. 18th, 2024

[Erin O'Gorman]

Yes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

We'll certainly know more once the investigation is complete.

Of course, the RCMP are also conducting their own investigation. Is that correct?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'm not aware of whether the RCMP are conducting an investigation. As I've testified before, we provided the material that we received to the RCMP. They've indicated that should they wish to have any information, they will seek it through a production order, and we stand ready to give them whatever they seek.

I don't know if they are conducting an investigation. I know they have the information and the allegations.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Okay. Thank you.

In your opening statement, you mentioned some of the changes around procurement practices in the CBSA since you've become president. I'd ask you to further clarify some of those changes. You mentioned some really great ones. In particular, the senior oversight piece is really important, just to ensure that everybody has eyes on something, so hopefully we can avoid this in the future.

Could you provide further detail on some of those changes? Perhaps you could add clarity on whether these changes were instituted specifically because of what we're seeing right now around the ArriveCAN experience, or whether there were intentions to tighten things up around procurement ahead of that.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll just speak to the first part of your question.

Some of the changes—indeed, all contract task authorizations—come through a senior executive committee now to conduct a challenge function, and we've centralized all procurement into one branch. What I saw was a breakdown of roles and responsibilities. I saw engagements with contractors without seeing the presence of procurement officials. Procurement officials play an important role beyond signing documents.

Based on what I saw, I felt there was a breakdown and a lack of controls, and that's what I've put in place.

There will be more recommendations to come. We'll calibrate. Perhaps I'll be found to have overreacted and slowed things down, but right now, given what I've seen, that's what I've put in place. At the same time, I'm trying to use fewer contractors.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Just for the second part of that question, were there any intentions to tighten those kinds of procurement processes or look at improvements ahead of this ArriveCAN experience, or was it really coming out of what we've seen over the last few months?

[Erin O'Gorman]

It all coincided with my assuming this role, so I didn't have much runway to examine the procurement function. When I started, there was nothing glaringly absent, but some of this information and the allegations came to me early in my tenure, so I acted.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

As our current president of the CBSA, do you have faith in the organization's ability overall to follow fair procurement practices moving forward?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I have absolute faith in the organization, including in procurement practices. We're trying to get to the bottom of a set of actions and work by individuals—and I'm looking forward to an investigation to conclude on that—but I have absolute confidence in the CBSA and its adherence to policies.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ossowski, I will just switch to you now to again bring us back to being in the midst of the pandemic, and some of the things that were experienced and the necessity to act. What data were the provinces asked for at the onset of the pandemic? How was that data crucial to helping inform public health officials on how best to protect Canadians from COVID-19, in the context of the CBSA?

[John Ossowski]

It was actually quite interesting, this past weekend, to review my business records and see some of the back and forth in terms of the initial requirements. Provinces, in fact, were developing their own applications. Airports had developed some of their own applications. What we were mostly interested in and what the Public Health Agency wanted from us were the collection of the contact tracing information—where you were coming from, your name and address. This was being passed off to the provinces so they could monitor people on their arrival in case they needed to ensure that their health was in place for—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid I have to cut you off there because we're past our six minutes, but perhaps you will have a chance to continue in the next round.

Mrs. Vignola, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. O'Gorman, does the Canada Border Services Agency have a policy or regulation to protect public servants or senior officials in the event of employment‑related legal action, for example by paying their legal fees?

[Erin O'Gorman]

We are required to follow Treasury Board policy.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

If I understand correctly, before they were suspended, Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano had lawyers paid for by the Canada Border Services Agency.

[Erin O'Gorman]

As I said, I made decisions that were consistent with our policy. I know that some information has been made public. My answer is that I acted in accordance with our policy.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So the lawyers were paid for by CBSA, in accordance with the policies in place. Did I understand correctly?

[Erin O'Gorman]

There are two reasons that legal fees can be paid. I apologize, but I will speak briefly in English.

They are for appearances before parliamentary committees and in legal proceedings. The criteria are set out, and I am consistent with that policy in the decisions that I've made.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Are these two public servants currently still covered by the protection policy? Are they still represented by lawyers who are basically paid for by taxpayers?

[Erin O'Gorman]

When I receive requests, I'll be able to make a decision. I've made decisions on all the requests I've received.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

Where do public servants and current or potential suppliers usually meet?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Meetings take place in the workplace. That doesn't mean that people don't meet outside. There are no specific rules on meeting places. We have a values and ethics code that guides us when we decide how and where to meet with suppliers, to avoid situations that could lead to a conflict of interest or the appearance of a conflict of interest.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In the email lists you sent us this week, I saw that a number of meetings had been held at breweries, for example, almost weekly. I won't name the breweries, because it's not their fault. These meetings could last half an hour, an hour or even an hour and a half.

Is it a normal, recommended, or effective practice? I'm not a beer drinker, but I find a meeting at a brewery questionable.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll say three things.

First, as I've said, we have to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. I've also seen a number of invitations. The investigation is ongoing and, to date, I have yet to receive any confirmation that people have accepted these invitations and participated in these meetings. However, I certainly find it troubling to see such invitations to meetings with suppliers, even though there is no evidence to show that procurement employees were present. I'm wondering about that as well.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Ossowski, in your presentation, you talked about the comparison between internal data storage and external storage offered by Deloitte.

Is the storage provided by Amazon Web Services considered an internal or external storage? From what I see in the documents we've received, the applications must be compatible with that platform and use it.