Am I running out of time?
Evidence of meeting #13 for Health in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was studies.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #13 for Health in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was studies.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Lecturer in Biology (retired), Imperial College London, As an Individual
Am I running out of time?
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
You are, but you're so interesting. You're going to be sending us all of your documentation, aren't you?
9:35 a.m.
Lecturer in Biology (retired), Imperial College London, As an Individual
You should have it already.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Wonderful. That's great.
Dr. Goldsworthy, you'll have an opportunity--
9:35 a.m.
Lecturer in Biology (retired), Imperial College London, As an Individual
Well, the thesis was at the end, which you will not now know, to tell you how to put it all right. It's like an Agatha Christie novel.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Dr. Goldsworthy, I can assure you that you'll have an opportunity to answer some questions very shortly. Now we have to go to Stockholm.
I hope it's still sunny there, Dr. Johansson. Is it? Can you hear me?
9:35 a.m.
Associate Professor, Experimental Dermatology Unit, Department of Neuroscience, Karolinska Institute, As an Individual
It is, indeed, but I'm sitting indoors, so I cannot really see it.
First of all I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for allowing me to participate on this very important occasion. It is, of course, a tremendous honour to represent the Karolinska Institute and the Royal Institute of Technology in Sweden. Both are famous for their Nobel prizes in medicine and physiology, chemistry, and physics.
To be honest, I'm a little bit at a loss, as I think you say, because I don't know what your problem is in Canada. I guess Health Canada is a governmental authority of some form and your work is to protect the health of Canadians.
My question must go back to you: what is the problem? Do you see a general deterioration of the health in Canada? Or do you have specific diseases or entities of diseases or functional impairments that are rapidly increasing? What is the actual problem to be solved or handled?
I understand from the other speakers that they have received background information, which I have not, and it seems that we are only talking, more or less, about cancer and mobile phones and mobile phone antenna systems.
Here in Sweden, the question is much, much larger than that when it comes to health effects of electromagnetic fields. If that's the issue, or if we are talking about the functional impairment of electro-hypersensitivity, or if we're talking about something else, I would be very happy to answer any form of questions.
Maybe I could just stop there and you could tell me instead what we are going to solve or handle today.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Thank you, Doctor. Those are very good questions, because there's been a panorama of information that has come out this morning on both of those issues.
We're going to go into our seven-minute round of questions and answers. I have to say to you that we will be adjourning at a quarter to eleven--this part of the committee--because I have to go into committee business after that.
We're going to begin with the first seven minutes and Ms. Murray.
April 29th, 2010 / 9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thanks to everybody who presented today.
I'm just going to go straight to Dr. Johansson's question.
Dr. Johansson, this is the second set of hearings we've had. What has emerged is that some intervenors have said there is no research that is causing concern such that there need to be limitations or any changes to the protocols around the use of cellphones or EMF. Others have said that there are thousands of studies showing cause for concern, precautionary action should be taken, and waiting for incontrovertible proof might take decades.
For a committee that has a responsibility on behalf of the public to address potential health concerns, certainly it has been very, very mixed testimony. We will be doing a report and making recommendations to Health Canada, and we as a committee are trying to understand what those recommendations should be.
I would like you to address that question. From your research and the information that you have from your institute, is there enough reason to be concerned and to apply some precautionary principles on this issue? Or do your institute and your work conclude that there's no concern in terms of impacts on people and their health?
9:40 a.m.
Associate Professor, Experimental Dermatology Unit, Department of Neuroscience, Karolinska Institute, As an Individual
I could quickly answer that by repeating what some of the other speakers have already said.
It's obvious that your safety code is completely out of date and obsolete, and that goes for any form of international or national standards body throughout the world, including the American IEEE and FCC and the international ICNIRP standards and so forth.
Low-intensity, non-thermal “bioeffects” and adverse health effects are demonstrated at levels significantly below existing exposure standards. These standards are inadequate and obsolete with respect to prolonged low-intensity exposures. And they are only technical in nature. You have to understand that. I'm surprised that you have invited people from the industry. Health Canada must be dealing with the health of Canadians, not the health of the industry.
Therefore, you should get rid of any form of technical standards and introduce new biologically based public exposure standards that are urgently needed to protect public health worldwide. It's definitely not in the interest of the public to wait.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you. That's a pretty clear answer. I appreciate that.
I'm interesting in understanding, Professor Muc.... You were saying that you have been consulting since your retirement. Can you tell me who generally your clients are?
9:45 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, Occupational and Environmental Health Unit, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Well, it has been a variety of clients, clients like CBC, members of the public, various employers who have installations that raise concerns among the workers, and so on and so forth.
I've continued to follow this whole issue. As I said, I was involved in the standards-setting process and the reviews that were done that led to things like SC-6, the ICNIRP standard, and so on and so forth.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you. I appreciate the answer.
I also have a question for Dr. Sasco.
You talked about how most of the research has been done by industry and how, from your perspective, the amount of publicly funded research is inadequate. If you were to be making a recommendation to Health Canada, what kind of research would you recommend that Health Canada undertake? Also, what recommendation would you make for the interim, while that research is being undertaken?
9:45 a.m.
Director, Epidemiology for Cancer Prevention, Institut national de la santé et de la recherche médicale, Next-Up Organisation
I think I would make a short-term recommendation for research and experimentation on animals, because that's where it's the easiest to compare exposure to electromagnetic fields versus non-exposure--but publicly funded research.
With regard to human health, we need to have more information on the health effects, especially on children, because that population is usually more sensitive to exposure to potential carcinogens. The problem is that if we look at long-term effects, it will take a while before we see it, so I think that in the meantime we should be very cautious in terms of exposure, and I support what has been said from Sweden.
There is no reason to wait to lower the exposure levels of a population. For example, in France, 16 cities have been chosen where the exposure will be limited to 0.64 per meter--the recommended level from the BioInitiative Report--to see if there will be a difference in the way people feel in regard to their own health, showing that it's feasible to have lower emission levels. Of course, we will not yet be able look at long-term effects.
So more research, yes, but more research should not delay action. When we see that we had to wait more than four years to maybe see one day that the results of the Interphone study were out, it's really a problem. Of course, public research has been limited so far because of the lack of funding, so there is a need for public funding, totally independent funding on these issues.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you.
Dr. Panagopoulos, you may have answered this already, but I didn't quite catch it. In the insect research that you've been doing at the University of Athens, is the damage to reproductive cells and insect reproduction reversible when they are no longer exposed to the radiation?
9:45 a.m.
Department of Cell Biology and Biophysics, Faculty of Biology, University of Athens, As an Individual
When some eggs are eliminated because of cell death induction, other eggs are produced. When the population is decreasing and when the effect is in the oocyte--this is the cell that will give us the next generations--then we may have mutations, inherited mutations, in the next generations.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Thank you, Dr. Panagopoulos.
Now we'll go to Monsieur Malo, please.
9:45 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I am going to continue with you, Dr. Panagopoulos. I would like to know how the Greek government reacted to the publication of your study. In addition, what standards are applied in Greece? I could also address the same question to Dr. Goldsworthy.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Dr. Panagopoulos, can you answer that? Did you hear the question, Doctor?
9:45 a.m.
Department of Cell Biology and Biophysics, Faculty of Biology, University of Athens, As an Individual
What was the reaction of the Greek government to the limits that were set in Greece...?
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
May I try to clarify that question? I think what Monsieur Malo was asking was--
9:50 a.m.
Department of Cell Biology and Biophysics, Faculty of Biology, University of Athens, As an Individual
The limits in Greece are 20% lower. They were set 20% lower than the ICNIRP limits.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Was that a result of your research? Was there any reaction to your research?
9:50 a.m.
Department of Cell Biology and Biophysics, Faculty of Biology, University of Athens, As an Individual
I don't think they paid much attention to my research.