Health Committee on April 13th, 2010

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for all of your testimony on this complex issue.

My first question is for Mr. Engelhardt and Mr. Sternthal. Were there any members of the government involved--in person, on paper, or over the phone--in the discussion in the fall of 2009 concerning whether to proceed with this project, which of the applicants would be in the lead, or whether the project should be cancelled?

[Steven Sternthal]

When you say “members of the government”, do you mean officials?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

No, I actually mean elected members.

[Steven Sternthal]

Of course, throughout the process, we kept our minister informed that this was being undertaken, that we were undertaking a review, and what the review included. Of course, our advice, as we developed that at lower levels of organizations, the government departments, and the Gates Foundation, was shared with our minister, who was informed about the fact that we felt that--

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Were other ministers involved?

[Steven Sternthal]

This initiative was to be co-funded by the Department of Health and the Department of Industry—so the Minister of Industry—as well as CIDA, which is under the Minister for International Cooperation. So definitely all three ministers would have been briefed and kept informed of how this process was proceeding.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

And in being briefed, were there conversations, or was there involvement or decision-making by those ministers or other ministers?

[Steven Sternthal]

This was, of course, as Dr. Butler-Jones indicated to the committee in March, advice provided up through officials, and it became the Government of Canada's position—

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Last fall, yes.

[Steven Sternthal]

In terms of the timeframe, it was towards January when this was communicated to the applicants.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

No, my question was about last fall, in the--

[Steven Sternthal]

With Dr. Engelhardt, discussions were ongoing, and that advice was being generated during the fall.

[Dr. Rainer Engelhardt]

Madam Chair, the information flow was really unidirectional: on process and how far we had achieved the process. Obviously we're obliged to inform our minister on an interesting project like this—where we were, were we meeting, the milestones, the process—but there was not a judgment call requested, or a request, if you like, for approval from the minister at all. This was done, in that sense, within the government, within the officials' group—including during last fall.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

So there were no conversations involving other ministers last fall in wrestling with this decision. Is that correct?

[Dr. Rainer Engelhardt]

Not in wrestling with the decision, no; there was no influence that way.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

We have heard very contrary views to those of the officials on basically all of the criteria that were suggested as a reason for this cancellation, whether it be dollar sustainability, technical capability, or the need for the facility.

Mr. Engelhardt, you mentioned that eventually the decision was made by someone somewhere that this facility would not provide as much value as spending the money on other priorities. That would assume there was an assessment, a cost-benefit analysis, if you will, of certain other priorities that was then tested against the cost-benefit of spending the $88 million this way. Can you table that cost-benefit analysis? Your testimony has been very vague as to what other priorities were assessed as providing greater value. I would like to see that assessment, if there is one. Could you comment?

[Dr. Rainer Engelhardt]

I think what I said—and I hope I was clear, but perhaps I wasn't—is that the overall issue of dealing with HIV/AIDS on a global basis has many large components. I don't mean to be vague about it here.

From a strict cost-benefit analysis...? Steven could respond to that. There was no additional study carried out that assessed cost-benefit of the multitudes of other opportunities that were there—

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

But I wrote your words down directly. You said It was cancelled “because it would not provide as much value as spending it on other priorities”, so I assume that someone has assessed those alternative priorities, if that's the basis for the decision to cancel this program.

So my last question is, how much money collectively had been invested to get this project from 2002 or 2003, when it was first conceived, to this point when one bidder was informally advised that they were successful? How much was sunk into the process? Could you answer that very quickly, Doctor, or Mr. Sternthal?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry, time is up.

[Steven Sternthal]

We can provide that information after the meeting, if you'd like.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Uppal.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dr. Gerson, you obviously have a great deal of experience in this area of vaccine development, and you mentioned that you have been involved in several vaccine projects with a number of organizations. Have you had any affiliation with any of the applicants in this case?

[Dr. Donald Gerson]

I had not before any of this occurred. After the first evaluation, the first phase was to look at a pre-proposal from each applicant and decide which ones would then be asked for a full proposal. After that, there was a gap. Then there was a request for people to review a second round of proposals, and I declined to be involved in that. The reason I declined was that I was moving back from Korea to Canada.

After that, I was asked by Western to help with theirs, but that was totally after the first evaluation, and I had nothing to do with the second. And I had nothing to do with the one that led to this conclusion.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

And had you worked with any of the companies prior to this project?

[Dr. Donald Gerson]

No.