Health Committee on Oct. 4th, 2012

[Daniel Albert]

I'd like to add some comments on that.

Firefighters have a variety of tasks. First, they respond to fires. That is the main emergency that they deal with. They also respond to car accidents. They help people in all sorts of situations when they are panicking and do not know who to ask for help. Firefighters help not only the general public but also the police in some situations. The police call us to see if we can help them. Paramedics also frequently need help. Earlier, we said that firefighters arrive before ambulance attendants in 80% of situations. That is the case in Gatineau and most communities in Quebec. Given the geographic location of fire stations in the municipalities, firefighters are available and on site more quickly when medical calls come in.

That being said, if we are talking about the entire country, why are we not speaking to all of the provinces, to the provincial health agencies? We believe that the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs represents all—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry, Mr. Albert, your time is up. We now have to go to our five-minute round.

If you can watch the chair, what I try to do is be very fair with committee members so they have equal time, because every question is extremely important and your answers are extremely important. I hate to interrupt, so if you watch for it, I'll give you a one-minute warning.

We'll go into our five-minute round, and we'll begin with Dr. Sellah.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would first like to thank the group of witnesses who came to tell us about the difficulty that the definition of the term “first responders” in federal guidelines presents for firefighters. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that this is the main focus of your request.

I would like to know how many firefighters there are in Canada and how many of them you think need to be vaccinated. With regard to pandemics, which is what we are talking about today, should all firefighters be vaccinated or just some of them?

Mr. Albert, you spoke about the differences between volunteer firefighters and professional firefighters. Can you elaborate on the vaccination of these two categories of firefighters?

[Daniel Albert]

According to our figures, there are 108,000 firefighters in Canada, and they can be found in all Canadian communities. I could not say exactly how many of them are professional firefighters. However, I can say that they all have the same goal of saving the lives of Canadians. They all have the same goal, whether or not they are paid full time, as are professional firefighters, many of whom are represented by Scott Marks and his association or by other associations in the other provinces.

Although their jobs are similar, the difference between a volunteer or part-time firefighter and a permanent or professional full-time firefighter—these are the terms used in our field—is that volunteer firefighters work every day at their regular job, and in the evenings and on weekends—when they are available—they will help their fellow citizens. They take training during their free time. All of their social activities revolve around helping their fellow citizens. That is the beauty of these people. It takes an incredible amount of courage to do this. Firefighting is in their souls; they are committed to it.

How many of these 108,000 people should be vaccinated? I could not exclude anyone; it would be impossible. When we are in a situation where all of our ambulances and emergency rooms are busy, will we wait for people to die? No, I do not think so. People will keep asking for help. Where will we send those requests? It will be the part-time firefighters who will want to help.

Why will they do that? Because they have first aid training. They know CPR. Their very presence among the people who need help will make them feel better. That is why we cannot distinguish between firefighters.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I wanted to know what is the difference between a professional firefighter and a volunteer firefighter during, for example, the H1N1 flu pandemic. What happened with that?

Of course, the goal is to define the federal directives, but we would also probably like to know what categories and what people will be classified as first responders in the case of a pandemic.

[Daniel Albert]

I will try to answer your question again.

In the case of a pandemic, even part-time firefighters will be called in. These people will be called upon by their communities to help out. These people will answer the calls for help that they receive.

It is impossible for me to distinguish between the work of a part-time firefighter and the work of a professional full-time firefighter. We cannot make that distinction. When they are facing a virus, they are just as vulnerable as anyone else. That is impossible for me to do.

What happened to people working part-time during the last pandemic? Unfortunately, I cannot say. I do not have that information. I can only speak for the firefighters I was working with at the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Monsieur Albert.

Mr. Lizon.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for coming here. I don't think there is anybody in this room who does not recognize the importance of your services and does not appreciate your dedication and great service to the communities you serve. Thank you very much.

First, I don't know whether or not you have statistics like this, but would you know whether you responded to any calls to people who were later diagnosed with H1N1? Were there calls? Do you have these kinds of statistics or not? I am talking about the last pandemic.

[Scott Marks]

From the association's point of view, we don't have access to those statistics. Whether municipalities kept them, specific to that—they likely had some sort of feedback. But there's no question that firefighters responded to patients with H1N1. It would be virtually impossible that it didn’t happen.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

If you were on the priority list or if you were not.... Maybe another question: how many firefighters actually got vaccinated in the pandemic? It doesn't matter when, at what point, but percentage-wise?

The reason I'm asking this question is I know of cases, not among firefighters but other groups, where some people refused to be vaccinated, and that's absolutely understandable. It's a personal decision. I didn't get vaccinated. It was my choice. Some people don't get vaccinated. Therefore, it probably is the same situation among firefighters.

[Daniel Albert]

In regard to your question on statistics, first of all, I have to refer to Paul Hills' testimony, where he said that once you get a call, it starts out with a small bobo and ends up with a big headache—and not the patient's; it's your headache. That's the reality all firefighters are faced with every day.

We're the ones who tell them, no, it's not a small bobo, it's a big headache, so get geared up for something else. That's the first question, but we don't have statistics on that.

Statistics-wise, how many firefighters were vaccinated or refused vaccination? Unfortunately, that comes down to a municipal or a provincial level, and there are no statistics. The Canadian association does not have that information, and I do not have it here.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Don't get me wrong; I truly believe that you should get vaccinated if it means peace of mind, considering the importance of your services. Firefighters and first responders who come to work and are called to emergencies should not be afraid to go and attend someone because they may fear they would contract a disease from that person.

I believe that's very important. You can discuss it, and anybody can argue about the effectiveness of the vaccine. We found out at the last meeting that the last pandemic, the H1N1, was the first one where a vaccine was available. In previous pandemics, there was no vaccine available.

We were also told that, on average, pandemics happen about three times every 100 years. Therefore, it's possible that we would not see another pandemic in our lifetime, but we may see it very soon as well. That's how the statistics sometimes work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You have 20 seconds left, Mr. Lizon.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I have a quick question. Do you know which provinces recognize firefighters as first responders?

[Scott Marks]

I don't believe any of them did at a provincial level. I think some municipalities provided vaccines at that level.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

If I may intercede here, Mr. Marks, and correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Manitoba did.

[Scott Marks]

You may be right. I'm not sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

We'll go to our next person because your time is up, Mr. Lizon. Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Kellway.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Through you, to the witnesses, thank you very much for being here today and illuminating this issue.

Scott, I don't know when you last served in Toronto, but you may be aware that in my riding of Beaches—East York we have this little ceremony every year, a remembrance of 9/11. It's an interesting and emotional reminder to everybody who attends that ceremony what the firefighters did on that day. It stands out and I think represents your profession well in the duty that you feel professionally, and for the volunteers as well—not to distinguish between the professional firefighters and volunteers—to public safety.

Last time you guys came to visit me in my office here on the Hill, Damien and gang left me with a remembrance memorial book of 9/11, which I've kept out. I raise all that because your testimony today has been a great reminder of the duty that your members feel for public safety, and all of us in the room, I'm sure, appreciate and thank you for that.

I want to get a little more precision on the issue with the guidelines. Maybe I'm a bit slow on this, but I thought I heard you say at the very beginning that the guidelines recognized firefighters as part of the first responder medical care, that you were in the guidelines as part of that group. Yet when it was prioritized and tiered, the occupation of firefighters was pulled out and put in the second tier. Am I understanding this correctly?

[Scott Marks]

It's actually the pandemic plan that recognizes firefighters as part of the emergency medical provision. From the plan, they take the sequencing guideline and in that translation to the guideline for H1N1, firefighters were somehow separated from other emergency medical responders and placed in a different tier. We don't really understand this. Maybe when the guideline was developed the people involved didn't fully understand the role firefighters play in emergency medical responses.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

So it's the translation from the plan to those priority sequences.

Are the rest of the occupations recognized as front-line first responders? They were all included in tier one in that translation except for firefighters? Is that the case?

[Scott Marks]

It's probably easiest to actually look at the guidance on H1N1, the vaccine sequencing. It's a little hard to find on the Internet now. It's been removed, but if you read the definition of “health care workers” it actually says:

All health care workers (HCW) involved with pandemic response or delivery of essential health services:

-Those who provide direct patient care as well as those who support the provision of health care services

- Includes full-time staff, part-time staff, students, regular visitors and volunteers, i.e., all persons carrying out the health care function

That definition, as far as I'm concerned, covers firefighters. However, inclusion of firefighters separately in the guideline is what caused the problem.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

So from the firefighters' perspective, you should always be included. Wherever the tiering of prioritization falls out, you should always be included in that global group of front-line health care workers. Okay, that's point one.

Point two, we heard from the folks on Tuesday about the epidemiology that goes behind the prioritization of these groups. I don't know whether I was blinded by science, but it was a very compelling presentation about what they do to figure out how the epidemiology affects different populations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry, we don't have time.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Can I ask this very briefly, then, and for a quick response?