Evidence of meeting #44 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nicotine.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Jones, does the Tobacco Harm Reduction Association of Canada receive funding from any industry?
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Director, Tobacco Harm Reduction Association of Canada
We actually took over about two months ago from a former group that folded, so we actually have about 700 members on our site, but we have links to quite a number of vaping groups right across Canada from B.C. out to Nova Scotia. We probably have access to at least over 10,000 people who are vapers.
Nova Scotia has asked THRA to discuss Nova Scotia's Bill 60. We've also offered up our expertise and help to some other provincial governments as well.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Your expertise is basically that you're ex-smokers, and I have no reason to question your personal testimony about how your personal health has improved, because I think most of us would recognize that there is a difference between vaping and combustion.
However, really you're not claiming to have an expertise other than talking about science and making a rather emotional appeal that we not use emotional arguments against combustion smoke to apply to vaping, and that we should be driven by science.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
But you're basically asking, since there is a paucity of science and everybody seems to acknowledge that except perhaps your group....
There's a very small number of actual scientific studies, and the results aren't really conclusive at this point about the long-term effects of combusting even propylene glycol or vegetable glycerine, let alone all the other compounds that might be added to that. And, of course, you're maintaining the addiction of nicotine for those who continue.
I think you said in your own testimony you were down to zero now. Are you using zero, or are you still using—
12:30 p.m.
Director, Tobacco Harm Reduction Association of Canada
I'm actually down to six.
December 2nd, 2014 / 12:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Yes, and that's laudable, and I don't think anybody's talking about making these products unavailable to persons like yourself. I think most of us recognize there is a benefit for you in the course you're taking, rather than continuing to smoke cigarettes, and many people, of course, have been caught.... But the concern is, how many of your members are dual-use members? I'm not sure you can answer that. You have a group of online enthusiasts, but the question is, are you concerned about dual-use, people who continue to use the convenience of vaping when combustion isn't possible in public places, near doorways, and so on with the restrictions that smokers currently have to endure?
12:35 p.m.
Director, Tobacco Harm Reduction Association of Canada
I have to admit that most smokers who start vaping do dual usage at the start, because it's a transition, just as when smokers start using a nicotine patch they also are able to continue smoking using the patch. It's the aspect that once you start to transition, you either become a vaper or—the other aspect—that if they do dual usage, most vapers will not smoke as much and will cut down on smoking quite a lot. This is taken from studies that we have seen.
Here again, if we can stop them from smoking a lot and maybe go to zero smoking, I think that should be supported.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
You said wait until the science comes in; however, if the science comes in concluding that we've actually contributed to a whole new generation of smokers, that's a concern to many of us here around the table.
I have to move on to ask Mr. Harrington a few questions.
Mr. Harrington, I don't know whether you've heard this; I would have liked to ask it of one of the previous witnesses. I think one of the previous witnesses said that in a study in Montreal, nine out of thirteen brands that claimed to have no nicotine actually did have nicotine. Would that be a concern to your organization?
12:35 p.m.
Director, Policy, Consumer Health Products Canada
Yes.
At the most fundamental level, what we have right now because of the non-enforcement of the existing ban is essentially an unregulated market. On top of all the concerns we're discussing now on a policy level, there is the simple math about who is watching what goes into these products and who is ensuring that they contain what they say they contain. There are obviously risks associated with this that go well beyond the level of nicotine.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
The previous witnesses raised issues about advertising to minors in particular. I think you mentioned that in your presentation.
Does your organization, Consumer Health Products Association, also share the concerns about advertising to minors and about emotional advertising?
12:35 p.m.
Director, Policy, Consumer Health Products Canada
Yes. I think advertising on a variety of levels is problematic.
In the absence of an agreed-upon regulatory structure, the question arises about what claims can be made for these products—what you are advertising, what claims are being made, and what assurances are being given to potential users. Also, the broader question of making these products available to minors and of the appeal of these products becomes an issue as well. When I say advertising, I want to emphasize that there's a whole gamut of promotional activities captured by that, such as sponsorship, and so forth.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
I have one more question that I'd like to ask very quickly, Mr. Chair.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ben Lobb
Unfortunately, we are over time. If we were close, we would let you ask it, but to be fair, we shouldn't.
Ms. Fry.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC
Many people seemed to be concerned that if you start using the e-cigarette, you would encourage young people to begin to use it and therefore they would become addicted to nicotine. That's the box that most people who are concerned are concerned about.
My question, however, is simply this. As it stands now, can young people go online at any age and order an e-cigarette? In the absence of regulations, can they do that? That's my first question.
My second question is, if an e-cigarette is being seen as a harm reduction tool, should one apply for a licence for it as a health product, or should one apply for a licence for it as a medical device?
Those are two important questions that I'd like answered.
12:40 p.m.
Director, Policy, Consumer Health Products Canada
To your first question, the status quo right now is essentially an unregulated marketplace, so certainly the answer is yes. That's easily done.
Your second question I think is a critical one. If e-cigarettes are regulated as a health product, we have standards and we have definitions of “drug” or “device”, etc., that are very similar in terms of intent, which establish that there has to be a demonstrable benefit that outweighs the risk, and there needs to be data to support that proposition.
That fits a therapeutic model. That model has been demonstrated to be quite effective with nicotine replacement therapies regulated under the natural health products regulations. I'm not sure that a harm reduction model, which is entirely plausible, and I don't suggest that it's an impossible role for these products to play, fits the same regulatory model as the NHP regulations. It may be something we have to look at as being a challenge to slot in somewhere else.
If we're looking at a less clearly defined benefit, then it becomes a model that focuses on controlling the risks, such as exposure to minors and so on, and it seems to me that might fit a little bit better under the Tobacco Act or similar legislation, perhaps the Canada Consumer Product Safety Act.
I think this is a critical consideration. What would be really unfortunate is to dilute the existing health product regulations, either the natural health products regulations or the medical devices regulations in order to force a fit for these products.
12:40 p.m.
Director, Tobacco Harm Reduction Association of Canada
Madam Fry, may I interject here?
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC
Sorry, Mr. Jones, I just wanted to ask you a specific question. I have two minutes so I want to get it in there.
Given that we're operating in a vacuum right now, in other words, anyone can get e-cigarettes anyhow, anywhere, anytime, etc.... There have been some jurisdictions in Canada that have banned e-cigarettes. My big question is simply this: If you can buy it online, how does a ban work? Is a ban moot? Is it ineffective?
Mr. Jones, since you've been talking about regulating, do you wish to respond?
12:40 p.m.
Director, Tobacco Harm Reduction Association of Canada
The aspect of online sales is you have to be the age of majority. Normally it's 18 years old. You have to be 18 to buy stuff on the Internet. All sites have the regulation that you have to 18. Also, when you buy online, you have to have a credit card. You have to be at least 18 to have a credit card. So there are certain regulations in place to make sure that youth just don't go there and buy anything they want.
The other aspect of this too, in terms of is it a medicine or tobacco, is the electronic cigarette should be a third option. It should be dealt with as a third option because it does not fit those other two areas. We should come up with some regulations that strictly look at electronic cigarettes and vaping and its own regulation, which can then combine all those aspects that we need to have for youth and all these other aspects. It does not fall into tobacco or medicine.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Mr. Harrington, some of your natural health products companies over the years have been purchased by pharmaceutical companies. Would you or your organization have any concern that the e-cigarette companies could be purchased by big tobacco companies?