Health Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you so much.

Do you believe we should reinstate the expert task force on substance use that your colleague Mike Serr used to co-chair?

[Fiona Wilson]

Yes. I think that would be helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

Next is Mr. Doherty, please, for five minutes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to preface my comments today by thanking those from our police forces, who are our witnesses here, for your service and for your sacrifice. It is greatly appreciated.

Deputy Commissioner McDonald, have you or anyone else at the RCMP been asked by anyone in the B.C. NDP government or the federal Liberal government, from the beginning of 2023 to today, including elected officials, staff of elected officials, department staff or anyone, to not speak publicly about safe supply-related drug seizures?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Thank you for the question.

No.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Deputy Commissioner McDonald, in April a memo was leaked from your division, E Division, to all frontline personnel as well as all detachments in British Columbia, essentially saying that it is an election year and that there are so-called “hot-button topics” such as safe supply and that you or your office has asked for frontline officers as well as detachments to not comment publicly on these hot-button political issues.

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

I'm sorry. Do you want me to respond? Is there a question there?

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Where did that come from, and what concern was there that caused that gag order to be issued?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

First off, yes, that memo was directed by our communications director here in the province. The police have a very important role to play in many instances of public safety issues, particularly in the illicit drug challenge that we face in British Columbia, and it's very important that police be objective in this. Any comments that may be perceived to either support or not support any one particular party can have a negative impact on the objective role of the police.

Our job is to get out the facts, and—

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I appreciate that, sir, but whether it's an election year or not, do you believe that British Columbians and indeed Canadians deserve to know the truth about criminal activity in their communities?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

They absolutely do, and we share that information regularly, as you have seen from many news releases recently about seizures of illicit drugs and some cases of safe supply drugs.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

With all due respect, the memo came out after Prince George released a statement regarding safe supply and ongoing investigations, as well as in Campbell River. We know that Victoria, Nanaimo, Kamloops and Kelowna are all seeing the same.

Doesn't it seem, as it would appear at least publicly, that there's a concern from E Division and those above that...communities in our province deserve to know the truth about what's going on in their regions?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

I completely agree that the communities deserve to know the truth, and it's our responsibility to provide the facts and the evidence to the communities when we see occurrences.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Sir, the definition of “widespread” is “distributed over a wide region, or occurring in many places or among many persons or individuals”.

Assistant Commissioner John Brewer is on the record as saying, “there is currently no evidence to support a widespread diversion of safer supply drugs in the illicit market in BC or Canada.”

We know from testimony as well as from reports of these investigations and, indeed, from these arrests that it is taking place in Prince George, Campbell River, Victoria, Nanaimo, Kamloops, Kelowna and, indeed, first nations across our area and in Alberta. Just by the very nature of all those communities, common sense would say that is a widespread problem.

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Thank you for the question.

I think it's important to provide the context for that statement by Assistant Commissioner Brewer.

It was in response, at the time, to statements made that we had safer supply diverted to most communities in British Columbia and outside of the province. At present, we do not have evidence to suggest that safer supply has been diverted outside of British Columbia. I agree with you that we've seen it in some of the communities you listed. Those are also the same communities that have a predominant criminal and illicit drug market and organized crime groups in them. As we identify them, we're addressing them, but we have not seen it everywhere.

However, I will say that it is an emerging concern and something we're following very closely.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Would your 6,800 frontline officers in British Columbia agree with the statement that there is no evidence to support widespread diversion? They're seeing it every day on the ground.

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Again, thank you for the question.

I would say that it depends on the community in which they serve, because we're not seeing it in every community. We are seeing it in some communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. McDonald and Mr. Doherty.

Next we have Dr. Powlowski, please, for five minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you all.

Let me start off by saying that like all of you here, my sympathies are overwhelmingly with those who've lost people to the drug crisis.

However, I want to talk about a different aspect of this problem.

A few months ago, I was in a downtown bar here in Ottawa—not that I do that very often. One of the colleagues I met up with was assaulted as he was going to the bar. Another one was threatened. Also, within about a month of that, I was returning down Wellington Street from downtown, from the Rideau Centre. My son, who is 15, was coming after me. It was nighttime, and there was someone out in the middle of the street yelling, screaming and accosting cars. I spoke to the parliamentary police and told this to them. They said that he's someone they know and not to worry about him. My son didn't know that, so I waited for him. I didn't want him to have to face some crazy person accosting him in the street.

There is certainly the perception among a lot of Canadians that a lot of downtown cores are out of control. Certainly there's also the perception that around places like safe supply and safe injection sites, things are worse—that there are people openly stoned in the street and getting CPR performed on them in the street, or that there are needles and excrement in the street.

One of the pillars of the Swiss approach to their drug problem is trying to decrease harm to society. I would note that this is not part of the Canadian approach. Does that need to be part of the approach?

I'm asking this of the representatives of the police out there: Do you agree that this is a problem? Do you agree that a lot of Canadians who aren't involved with drugs are increasingly unhappy with society in the downtown cores that are this way? Do you want to do more about this? If so, what do you need to better address this situation?

Let me start with the RCMP and then we'll go on from there.

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

I would note that in our experience, one of the success factors required for decriminalization is public support.

I think you're faced with situations—as we've seen and experienced in our communities, and as we hear from our communities—in which public consumption in some places may lead to other members of the public feeling at risk or threatened or vulnerable to street-level crime, as you spoke about. It presents a challenge. That's because it not only creates situations in which criminal activity can occur but also puts a stigma on people who use drugs but who may not be engaged in that type of activity.

If we don't have public support moving forward, decriminalization and societal acceptance of it will be an uphill battle.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Could I ask the two other police chiefs the same question?

[Fiona Wilson]

Chair, I can address that question.

It's not lost on me that your example was in Toronto, where there is actually no decriminalization. I'm happy to comment on our decriminalization experience here in British Columbia as it relates to public consumption. This is because I couldn't agree more with Deputy Commissioner McDonald that the matter of public consumption on our streets is something that we were very concerned about before the application went in for the section 56 exemption, and we continue to be concerned about it to this day.

In fact, all of the concerns that we had have been realized. We've had some really concerning examples of public consumption, despite the fact that, in my experience, the vast majority of people who use drugs have no interest in doing so in front of children, for example, or in manners that I think are problematic.

I have to give our provincial government credit for doing everything it could to come up with a public consumption act. Unfortunately, that act has been prevented from coming into force as a result of an interlocutory injunction that was issued by the chief justice of the B.C. Supreme Court.

There have been efforts to address that. It would have been nice to have that matter addressed prior to the submission of the request for the section 56 exemption. It is an ongoing challenge here in British Columbia, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Ms. Huggins, I'm not sure if you want to get in on that. That is the end of Dr. Powlowski's time, but if you want 30 seconds to offer your perspective, go ahead.

[Rachel Huggins]

Thank you for the additional time.

I think the only thing I would add is that the CACP special purpose committee on decriminalization has reconvened, and this is one of the issues that will be incorporated. We are taking another look at decriminalization, based on what we've learned in the last few years. I think it is one of the priorities that will be in that report.

Thank you for the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.