Health Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the RCMP officials. One of the pillars of the national strategy is law enforcement. What tools do you need to be more effective at law enforcement, particularly when it comes to seizures or the fight against organized crime or contaminated illicit drugs?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That's for you, Mr. McDonald, I believe, or Mr. Ng.

[Assistant Commissioner Will Ng, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Yes. Through the chair, thank you for your question.

Related to tools for law enforcement, with decriminalization in place, we are not seizing quantities below 2.5 grams. We are not pursuing investigations on those offences that we would have pursued prior to decriminalization.

That said, we now need tools to target the ones who are actually selling and trafficking the illicit drugs to users and, ultimately, the ones who are actually producing the toxic drugs that are, sadly, causing the deaths. I note that there are precursors utilized to manufacture fentanyl and methamphetamines and other opioids. A number of these precursors are currently unregulated, meaning that they're legal to possess and utilize, and the police do not have the powers currently to seize or to investigate the possession of these chemicals.

It would be great for law enforcement if there was an effort made to start to schedule and regulate these types of chemicals to allow, permit and give authority to the police to seize these chemicals to prevent the manufacture of the illicit substances.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That's all the time you had, Mr. Thériault.

We'll go to Mr. Johns, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

We know that the expert task force came back with some unanimous recommendations, and it was chaired by Mike Serr, the former president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. Their recommendations were unequivocally unanimous and supported stopping the criminalization of people who use substances; providing a safer supply of substances to people who use substances and require them; and scaling up prevention, education and treatment on demand. Those are all policies that are very similar to what Portugal did.

Right now we're hearing this campaign about diversion as the dominant factor for driving the toxic drug crisis. Do you believe that diversion, in terms of the conversation around the diversion of safer supply substances, is actually causing more harm by slowing down the pace of addressing the real root causes and problems and of our responding to this drug crisis?

Ms. Wilson, I'll let you start.

[Fiona Wilson]

I certainly think that for us here in Vancouver, as I said earlier, we focus on what is doing the most harm, and we know that diverted safe supply and diverted prescription medications are not what's killing people.

Also, when you consider the volume or the potential volume to scale up diverted prescriptions or diverted safe supply, it pales in comparison to what organized crime is doing in terms of fentanyl production, importation and exportation. Those are really where we focus our efforts here in Vancouver, and I think it's important that we continue to use our finite resources to focus in on those areas, individuals and groups that are doing the most harm.

Although I think diversion is important and we need to keep an eye on it, it has been around for a very long time. In my mind, when we look at the overdose deaths and at the scalability, I think there are other areas that I would focus in on in terms of the individuals and groups who are doing the most harm.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Deputy Commissioner McDonald, just yes or no, do you think this conversation about diversion versus scaling up a response is causing more harm,?

[Fiona Wilson]

I think those conversations are important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Mr. Johns.

Next we'll go back to Mr. Doherty for five minutes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deputy Commissioner McDonald, has organized crime incorporated safe supply pharmaceuticals into their trafficking operations, yes or no?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Yes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Corporal Jennifer Cooper of the Prince George RCMP said the following:

We have noted an alarming trend over the last year in the amount [of] prescription drugs located during drug trafficking investigations....

Organized crime groups are actively involved in the redistribution of safe supply....

Do you agree with those statements?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Yes. Organized crime groups are trafficking not only illicit substances but any prescription drugs that they can get their hands on.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

We know of a recent investigation in Prince George related to organized crime individuals literally standing outside of pharmacies and buying or collecting the safe supply from those who were receiving it. Is this true?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

Yes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

From what you're hearing from frontline officers, in your opinion, has decriminalization contributed to an increase in general street disorder and illicit drug use in public?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

From our experience in our communities, I'm not certain you can draw the correlation that decriminalization has contributed to increased disorder. What we do see, as both I and the other police officials on this panel noted, is that the public consumption of illicit substances is presenting increasing challenges for law enforcement to deal with, and it's becoming an increasing concern in our communities.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Do you understand that the nature of your comments and those of others in downplaying the seriousness of the diversion problem or denying that there's a problem at all goes against every detachment and municipality fighting for more resources for policing?

Assistant Commissioner Ng just said that you need the tools, so when we're fighting for those municipalities, when municipalities are asking for more resources and when there are statements such as Assistant Commissioner Brewer's or indeed yours, those fly in the face of those of us who are trying and fighting for you to get the tools and resources to do your job. Do you understand that?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

I would disagree, in the sense that we're not downplaying diversion. We are identifying where it's occurring, how it's occurring and the fact that it's occurring in addition to the other illicit substances and drugs that our organized crime groups are trafficking in. We're targeting those groups, and we have a commitment to provide accurate and timely information to the public and to government officials so that they too are aware of the problem.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

On March 11, the statement on safer supply indicated, “The seizure of prescription drugs, such as narcotics and opioids, that are no longer in the possession of their prescribed owner is something the police have had to deal with on many occasions.”

It continues, “there is currently no evidence to support a widespread diversion of safer supply drugs in the illicit market in BC or Canada.”

Deputy Commissioner McDonald, I am going to have to disagree with you when your frontline officers in your detachments are actually producing and presenting more evidence on that.

It's frustrating when you have folks who are fighting for you and fighting for your frontline officers—and I know they disagree with the public statements—and then you have comments such as this. It would appear that the RCMP, and indeed the B.C. chiefs of police, are covering for the government in an election year on an issue that's politically bad for them.

Can you at least agree with me that this is exactly how your comments and those of some of your officers would be taken?

[D/Comm Dwayne McDonald]

No, I'm sorry. I completely disagree with that.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree on that.

How many more communities need to report diversion of so-called safe supply before it crosses the threshold of “widespread”?

Ms. Wilson, are all of the B.C. chiefs of police on side with decriminalization and safe supply, or are there some who are concerned and want to pause this experiment?

[Fiona Wilson]

I can certainly say that we've expressed our significant concerns with decriminalization. There is no question about that.

I think one thing all chiefs across the province agree on is that we do not want to throw people in jail simply by virtue of their personal drug use. Beyond that, as we've learned, the devil is in the details. We have been flagging the issue of public consumption since prior to the submission of the exemption request.

What's happened is exactly what we predicted would happen. We're satisfied that the province has tried to address that through the public consumption act. Unfortunately, it's been unsuccessful to this point.

Going back to the matter of diversion, the reality is that there are seven people per day dying in British Columbia as a result of the toxic drug crisis. They are not dying as a result of prescription-diverted medication; they are dying because of the poisonous drug supply that is on our streets.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Wilson.

Dr. Hanley, please, you have five minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much.

Deputy Chief Wilson, thanks for emphasizing that last point.

I continue to be puzzled by the emphasis from my colleagues on diversion, which, as you and others have stated, is a problem that needs to be addressed but that is not killing Canadians. It's our illicit toxic drug supply that is killing Canadians.

I do have a couple of short questions for you.

My colleague, Dr. Powlowski, described what it's like to take a walk around downtown Ottawa here. Certainly when I walk home every day, I encounter similar circumstances. However, this is not an area where we have a decriminalized approach.

Can you just talk about the correlation? I know there is a correlation with public acceptance and that this is a serious issue to be addressed, but can you talk about the correlation between decriminalization and public safety and public consumption?