Evidence of meeting #13 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was privacy.
4 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I would not compare them, because we are talking here of jurisdictional differences.
However, I would invite the Assistant Privacy Commissioner to say a few words about our request of last week pertaining to the reform of the Privacy Act, which has become rather obsolescent and which does not apply to the electoral process nor to all of the personal information fraud that occurs with elections. This, to my mind, is an important aspect.
4:05 p.m.
Assistant Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Indeed, on June 5, we tabled with the Standing Committee a document outlining our proposals for reforming the Privacy Act.
Generally speaking, what we are saying is that this Act, which was passed in 1983, is inadequate in the context of today's technological reality, of the Government On-Line initiative, etc.
Furthermore, we believe that this Act has inherent weaknesses in the area of accountability to Parliament. We believe it requires major improvements, especially since it appears that many federal organizations are not subject to this Act. We view that as a major deficiency.
If you wish, we could table this document with you. It would give you an idea of our proposals in view of reforming the Act.
June 14th, 2006 / 4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Thank you.
I thank Madam Picard for bringing up the idea of voter information—and other members are okay to bring that up again—but before we move past the voter information card, I'd like to ask the panel about two problems that have been presented.
One is, as pointed out by Monsieur Guimond, that these voter cards are left at random in apartment buildings, in malls, and so on and so forth. Canada Post does that. The second issue is that they are sent out not inside an envelope; the information is in full view of anybody out there. Is either one of those points a violation of the Privacy Act?
4:05 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Well, as my colleague has said, the Privacy Act doesn't address very much by today's standards of data protection, and it certainly doesn't address details like that.
In the commercial private sector, where we have another more recent law called PIPEDA, we have had reason to mention to large financial institutions that leaving all kinds of information, free credit cards, and convenience cheques with your name and account number pre-signed are an invitation to identity theft.
By analogy, although we haven't had to look at this issue, we've had very few complaints, other than about one a year, on the electoral process.
It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, this kind of activity in this day of rampant identity theft is one that should be looked at very seriously, because who knows who can pick up this information?
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to the witnesses.
If I understood correctly, when Mr. Preston talked about social insurance numbers, the idea of a number reserved for Elections Canada was brought up. However, your fear is that there be too many numbers. I have always believed that we were always but one number. Perhaps it would be preferable to have two.
With regard to the social insurance number, I believe that its usage would be an intrusion into my private life, especially since this number gives access to all sorts of things that would be at the disposal of others. My number is personal; I give it to whomever I please, and no one will take it away from me. The very idea of simply providing this number to Elections Canada would fly in the face of the protection of my privacy.
4:05 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
You are right, this number is very sensitive information. I do not think that anyone suggested using social insurance numbers. I think it was a simple hypothesis.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Yes, but I thought I heard you say—and we could perhaps verify this in the “blues“—that you were of the belief that if there was no other possibility, this might be envisaged. In any event, it did not appear to be the end of the world for you.
4:05 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Whatever the case, I certainly made no such suggestion. If that is the impression I left you with, then you are providing me with the opportunity to make things clear.
I wished to underscore the fact that we already deal with numerous sensitive indicators that can be used to carry out verifications in databases, to cross-check information, to create profiles, to monitor one's activities and to invade our privacy.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Let us come back to the matter of the number. Let us suppose that we decided to use a second number, a number that would be reserved exclusively for Elections Canada. I do not think these people are necessarily very lucky, but there are five Yvon Godin just in my very own riding of Acadie—Bathurst. Imagine the kind of phone calls they sometimes get.
If we created a number for the exclusive use of Elections Canada, I do not think that would infringe on anyone's privacy, because the number would have no meaning whatsoever except for Elections Canada. It would be better than to force people to provide photo ID and 10 different identification documents. You would have a greater chance of winning the 6/49 lottery jackpot than of having two Yvon Godin with the same number. This would allow for identity verification and would be worthless outside of Elections Canada.
4:10 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
What do I think of that? It might be possible. Without being an expert in the field, I would imagine that, given the cost of setting up these numbers for more than 22 million voters, there might be some temptation to use them elsewhere in order to make the investment more worthwhile. That is what I wished to underscore. There could be consequences flowing from that.
For example, we already have the date of birth; it is in our documents. This would not necessarily entail the same investment and would not lend itself as much to what we call diversion of intent, where you see something created for a given purpose wind up being used for something else.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Chairman, as far as the date of birth is concerned, I do not believe that it is available everywhere.
4:10 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Generally speaking, it is not.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
It might be possible to have your date of birth indicated on your identification card, but if it is included in Elections Canada's documents, then it could wind up in the hands of other people.
4:10 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
You are perfectly correct, sir. This is why I am taking advantage of this opportunity to mention that last year, other privacy commissioners from all over the world and myself signed a document entitled de Montreux Convention, that can be found on our Website. I might venture to send copies of this declaration to the Chairman.
We are realizing that in several countries, such as Canada, elections legislation is not subject to universal data protection standards. The problem is not what members of Parliament do with all of this personal information. The danger is due to the multiplication of users, to the fact that data can be circulated within ridings and compared with the information provided by other databases in order to create voter profiles. This is a common occurrence.
I would strongly encourage you to delve into this matter. I am also of the belief that voters should be aware of who has access to their personal information and what it will be used for and that they should themselves have access to it, be able to correct errors and ensure that it is secure. As you were saying, if a good many people know my date of birth, then it is not secure and this could lead to other problems.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
The card that is sent to the voter gives his or her address and the place where he or she must go to vote. There is no personal information. I do not see any usefulness in placing the card in an envelope.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Joe Preston Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON
But it's used by 80% of Canadians as ID to vote.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
He brought up the question of using it as ID to vote, and Mr. Kingsley was very clear: if they're using that as ID to vote, it's wrong, because it's not a voting card. It means somebody is not doing their job. We could come up with all kinds of ideas here, but if the people on the ground decide not to follow the law we enact in Parliament, we're still going to have the same problem. And that's the point I want to make. If it's in an envelope, some people may not see the card, and if they don't take their card and go to that, perhaps that will be the answer. And Mr. Kingsley has said he's ready to do that, put it in an envelope.
The question to you was not a question. It was brought up here, and I just want to make sure I clarify that this was not breaking any rule of privacy; it's just the address of a person and where you can go to vote.
But I understand Madame Picard's point, and why she said that she was looking for suggestions.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Thank you very much, Monsieur Godin. This is a good discussion to carry on later.
We're going to enter round two. I suppose a comment might be made that it's up to this committee to decide what identification would be required at the polls. The voter information card is definitely not one of them. That's the impression I'm getting.
But we will move to round two, five minutes, Mr. Proulx.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you, Mr. Goodyear.
Good afternoon, Ms. Stoddart. Good afternoon Mr. D'Aoust. I thank you for having accepted our invitation. This is not necessarily a great party, but it is interesting.
Madam Stoddart, we are talking about identification and the right to information. However, I would like to come back to the very basis of our electoral system and talk about the permanent electoral list. The Committee has learned—and we have heard witnesses' statements to this effect—that additions to this list, wrongly or rightly, are very common. We have also noted that the number of removals was lower. Allow me to explain. As has been the case at every election, during the last campaign, I went door to door. Often, when you visit a multiple-unit building, you knock on the door of an apartment where, according to the voters' list, there should be six occupants. When talking to the person who is inside you are told that there are not six people, because it is a bachelor apartment. There has been only one person living there for the last three, four or five years. It is then that we realize that the names on the list are those of the previous occupants.
We therefore put to Mr. Kingsley the fact that there were serious shortcomings and problems with the establishment and updating of the electoral list. My colleague, Mr. Guimond, was saying a little earlier that Mr. Kingsley has been giving us different answers. As you are aware, we discussed this with him and there are all sorts of good or not so good reasons to explain why he obtains information from the Canada Revenue Agency, from provincial governments—be it health insurance or driver's licence data—as well as from others.
You are the expert. In your opinion, what information presently contained in the various systems of the different orders of government could be used in order to ensure that the voters' list is kept up to date while respecting the Access to Information Act? Is it legal for Elections Canada to use driver's licences, health insurance cards or Canada Revenue Agency data? Are there any elements contained in these information sources that are not accessible?
Last month, there was a census that was not of the scope of those that we have seen in Canada over the last 10, 12 or 15 years. In this year's census—which could be qualified as ordinary—, people were asked to provide their name, date of birth, address, occupation, etc. Could Statistics Canada data be used to establish the electoral list? You are familiar with the databanks held at the federal, provincial and municipal levels. Are there databanks that could be used for this purpose?
4:20 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Sir, your question is broad and presumes that I am familiar with all of the databanks held in the provinces. I must first remind you that the Canada Elections Act is not subject to the Privacy Act. I believe that this situation should be corrected in the very near future.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Excuse me, Madam, we do not want the information on the electoral list to be provided to others. We would like to see Elections Canada be able to use the information held in other databanks for the establishment and updating of the permanent list.
4:20 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I understand, but data protection legislation must work both ways. What can be collected can be shared and circulated.
In my view, there is no limit to the information that Elections Canada can legally obtain. This organization is free to modernize its list as long as it respects the usual standards. For example, Elections Canada has a written agreement with Revenue Canada, and I believe it also has one with the Services Committee of Industry Canada. The Office of the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada is, it too, subject to Treasury Board's current policy for data interface. This policy strongly urges Elections Canada to evaluate the impact of its proposed agreement on privacy, to submit it to us for comment and to gather the least possible amount of personal information.
I believe that those are just about the only theoretical limits that exist. Mr. Kingsley would be better informed about this than me. I believe that they can go after information as long as they have reached an agreement.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
You are the expert on personal information, and not Mr. Kingsley.
4:20 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Yes, but I have told you that his act is not subject to the Privacy Act; it is completely removed from it. I believe that that is a problem. All of the federal government's agencies and legislation should be subject to the same data protection standards and to the same rules, even if exceptions will be made in practice.
It is my understanding that Mr. Kingsley obtained a whole series of files through agreements, and I have talked to you about the federal government's current policy, which provides the framework for the types of agreements that can be negotiated.