Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 15th, 2006

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Does that exist with photos? I don't know.

[A voice]

Yes, it has a photo in Ontario.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Could we have further discussion, please?

We'll have Mr. Simard and then Madam Jennings.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

There should be a correction on line 4. I believe it should be “voter info card” again, as opposed to “ID”.

Also, one of the reasons I think we're running into this potential fraud--and I think Mr. Hill hit it right on the nose--is that there's no process. It seems to me that one of the most important things you do in a democratic nation is vote. We haven't talked about what is not acceptable. For instance, is a magazine label proper identification? It seems to me that should be totally outlawed, but right now it is acceptable. We haven't talked about that.

It seems to me that with the photo ID you will probably resolve about 70% of the issues. That is the first question you asked, and it is a fundamental question. That's the first thing you do. But what is step two? What is a secondary acceptable piece of identification? It's not a magazine label. So we should have that as well, and maybe a step three.

If you don't meet these three requirements, you don't vote. At one point we have to be serious about this, and I don't think we're there yet. I don't think a magazine label is an acceptable piece of identification, and right now it's accepted. We haven't dealt with that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

One thing I am hearing--and we should deal with this right now--is that we should come up with which pieces of identification are acceptable, and everything else will not be. The first suggestion I'm hearing is for some form of government-issued photo identification, but we will continue the discussion on that pathway if we could.

Ms. Jennings, go ahead, please.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Yes. I actually like the statement that Mr. Simard just made. I would just ask the committee that if we do in fact recommend photo ID, along with all the various steps, including asking for the birth date, that the wording include photo identification issued by a provincial, municipal, or federal government, but also include that issued by aboriginal groups that are party to a self-government agreement ratified by an act of Parliament, and any other agencies. You will have aboriginals, a very small number, who may not necessarily have some kind of photo ID that is issued. If they're of age they probably will drive and therefore have a provincial driver's licence, but there will be some who will not have any photo ID. So that as well would be acceptable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Okay. That's a good point. Thank you.

Could we have Mr. Preston, and then Ms. Crowder?

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Well, I agree with all that's been said, and I really don't mind the way the rule for Quebec reads in the document we have been handed. I continue to want to force the issue that the voter information card is in no way a piece of identification. It should not be used at the polls to the point that--I think Mr. Reid made the point that we should take the names off them. It can be mailed to an address to indicate that people at the address vote at a certain polling station, but it in no way identifies who a voter is at that address.

The other problem I still have is that someone can vouch for someone. I think it leads us to an improper form of identification. I recognize in the vouching system in Quebec you can vouch for one person if you have indeed shown all of your proper identification.

I think we're asking for a higher level of identification. I just don't know about the vouching piece.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Go ahead, please, Ms. Crowder, and then we'll have Mr. Reid.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I would like a point of clarification. Are we saying that every voter must have photo identification?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We haven't gotten there yet.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay, because I need to reiterate the point that there are particularly aboriginal peoples who do not have photo identification. They may be status members, and their status cards do not have photo ID on them; they are not self-governing so they would not necessarily have a piece of government ID. There needs to be some mechanism to allow people who show up without photo ID to vote.

[A voice]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

What I'm hoping to achieve here is to listen to all the comments and then come up with a recommendation that I think will satisfy all committee members.

Could we have Mr. Reid? He's the last speaker I have. If anybody wants to speak to it, please put up your hands.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I just wanted to address the voter notification card that we get. It actually does say this is not ID. I think the point to be made here is that obviously it already says that, but it's being used informally, probably not as proof of identity but as proof of address.

What seems to me to be reasonable to do is to just say to the occupant, “If you live at this address, you vote at this location”, end of story. The point is you're sending it out to an address. Whoever lives at this address votes at this poll. That's why it says, “To Scott Reid or Occupant”. So why not? I think that would eliminate anybody using it for any other purpose. I think the committee should consider this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Without trying to get too far off track, can we get an agreement that we instruct the Chief Electoral Officer to simply use “occupant”?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Perfect.

Now, since there are no other speakers, may I take the liberty of proposing that we word this.... We will review it on Tuesday so that everybody's comfortable with the wording, but ultimately, the gist or the sense would be that the primary thing we want is a piece of photo ID that's issued by a government, or, failing that, if you don't have that, then two pieces of other ID, specifically, health card, driver's licence, senior's card. If you don't have any of those items, then you must take an oath that you are a Canadian citizen and you are eligible to vote. You take that oath before a panel or some authority at the polling station. Frankly, our next item of business, that we've already agreed to, is that we will advertise at polls the offences of lying about that.

On top of that, I would like to have wording in there that voter information cards, magazine subscriptions, hydro bills, etc., are not acceptable forms of identification.

Are we happy with that? We'll bring the wording back to the committee—

[A voice]

What was the last one?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That we simply add to the clause that voter information cards, magazines subscriptions, etc., are not acceptable pieces, simply to clarify that, no, you can't use these. Okay?

That's how I'm proposing we reword this, and we'll discuss it further on Tuesday.

Mr. Hill, further comment, and then Mr. Preston.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Only that you didn't address my point, which was that when the poll clerks are being trained--not the individual scrutineers or whatever--we have a process so they clearly understand that it is mandatory for them to ask.... You've got Joe Blow in front of you, and you ask, “Do you have government-issued photo ID?” If the answer is, “Well, no, I don't,” they must be asked, “Do you have these other two recognized pieces of ID?” If neither of those other recognized pieces of ID that we identify has their birth date on it, they should be required to ask that person, “What is your date of birth?” And they should know that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I apologize. I do recognize that that point was made, and I think that's easy to add into the wording, that this is mandatory and this is the process.

Mr. Preston, then Monsieur Guimond...Mr. Simard first, I'm sorry.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Very quickly, the magazine piece or the utility bill piece is, to me, a perfectly legitimate second piece of identification. If I have photo ID that shows me and the other shows that I live at the address, then I think that's a legitimate piece of identification, and it has been used in other cases.

I can't go to vote with only a magazine, but if I vote with a picture card that shows me...as well as the magazine, which shows that I live at that address....

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I think that's too confusing, to be quite honest with you. I would not want to open that can of worms. That's my opinion.

Mr. Simard, and then Monsieur Guimond. My apologies, Mr. Simard was up first, please.

Mr. Simard, are you wanting to say anything?

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Yes. One thing we don't have and that we did not ask the CEO is, what are actual legitimate pieces of identification right now? Mr. Preston was talking about a phone bill. If they're using magazines with labels that you can actually print and stick on there, what else are they using? I don't know, and I would like to know that, if I could.